The world is in one helluva mess and so is this country

[Westdene Seagull]

I wish I could make some sense of this. I think I understand how the payment is calculated, but have no idea where they derive the benefit received back from. Even in the extreme case a portion of agricultural subsidy, must in some way translate into lower food prices, would you agree ?

The benefit back is direct subsides of things like new roads. I'll agree that indirect benefits such as tourism because a visa isn't required aren't accounted for. As for us receiving anything for the CAP - a very large majority goes to France and then less so to Spain and Italy.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

The mess the world is in is all relative to the Cold War when we were on the edge of nuclear war.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This is a democratic country. Tick the box for the party you agree with or if you don't and feel that strongly set one up yourself, then see how many people agree with you, that's how it works.

You're deluded if you think democracy in this country really works !

 

[Nibble]

I've never really got my head round the benefits or drawbacks of belonging to the EU but I don't agree with Cameron trying to dictate to the EU how it should be run. If it were anyone else arguing the toss I would give them the benefit of the doubt but him being him and being a Tory posh boy you just know he wants to get them to relax their regs so he can push through something like scrapping minimum wage or some such insidious arseholery.

 

[User removed 4]

I've never really got my head round the benefits or drawbacks of belonging to the EU but I don't agree with Cameron trying to dictate to the EU how it should be run. If it were anyone else arguing the toss I would give them the benefit of the doubt but him being him and being a Tory posh boy you just know he wants to get them to relax their regs so he can push through something like scrapping minimum wage or some such insidious arseholery.

says the ex public schoolboy

 

[Nibble]

says the ex public schoolboy

Grow up and stop sending threatening PM's you loon.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I've never really got my head round the benefits or drawbacks of belonging to the EU but I don't agree with Cameron trying to dictate to the EU how it should be run. If it were anyone else arguing the toss I would give them the benefit of the doubt but him being him and being a Tory posh boy you just know he wants to get them to relax their regs so he can push through something like scrapping minimum wage or some such insidious arseholery.

As far as I can see, Cameron isn't dictating how the EU is run rather what OUR relationship with the EU is. Having seen numerous governments give away powers to the EU ( both Tory and Labour ), the electorate being conned in the early 70's about what the Common Market was really about, Labour completely back tracking about their promise for a referendum ( COWARDS !!!! ) and anyone under 50 not really having a say on our relationship with the EU it's about time a political party grew some bollocks and gave US the voters a say. At least Cameron and his party ( despite all their faults ) look like doing so - and it has nothing to do with his social background. Only someone with a weak argument would suggest it does.

 

[CheeseRolls]

The benefit back is direct subsides of things like new roads. I'll agree that indirect benefits such as tourism because a visa isn't required aren't accounted for. As for us receiving anything for the CAP - a very large majority goes to France and then less so to Spain and Italy.

So what do you make of this then ?
EU plans cuts to subsidies for biggest farms - FT.com

The commission trying to push through reforms, opposed by national governments and the UK farming union.

How do we protect the countryside in a UK centric view of the world ?

This is what a commons select committee recommended.

MPs call for return to headage payments - 2/16/2011 - Farmers Weekly


Paying landowners based on how many head of cattle they can squeeze onto a mountain

It seems either way we pay

 

[cunning fergus]

On the UK points:

1) By any rational estimate, the economic benefits to the UK from being part of the EU have always greatly outweighed the relatively small net cost (around 1-2% of GDP) if I remember correctly

2) The UK has always been a country of immigration. Again the recent evidence, despite what you read in the Mail etc, suggests that the economic benefits of recent immigration have been positive -- it has added to GDP (and even to GDP per capita), and surprisingly to some people, it has had little or no downward effect on wages or upward effect on youth unemployment. There is a lot of good research literature on this topic.

3) Welfare costs in the UK, in comparison with most successful developed economies, are not high, either in absolute terms or as a % of GDP. Most benefit levels are extremely low in comparison to average wages in this country, and (again contrary to what you read in the Mail), the vast majority of benefit expenditure goes not on the unemployed, or so-called benefit scroungers, but on state pensions. With a decently progressive income tax system (ideally supplemented with a wealth tax) the country could easily afford the current welfare bill, and indeed could be more generous to the unemployed, disabled people and pensioners. As a higher rate tax payer, I would happily pay more in tax to contribute to this, alongside better public health and education.

4) er... isn't NSC a massive wind farm par excellence??

And what's it all got to do with peace and harmony.

PS: I agree that the growth of radical Islam in some parts of the World is a bit of a worry...

Re 1. If this was that easy then why do the UK's pro European politicians have such a hard job convincing the electorate on these positives. I am not saying that there are no economic positives (particularly on a single market), but overall these positives are difficult to discern for those on the ground.

You encapsulate juxtaposition this quite neatly because even if it was true, when it comes down to it the free movement of labour in the EU will fundamentally only benefit the bourgeoisie and those in big business. The British working classes in the meantime are hung out to dry. If you disagree with me then read the online comments in the Guardian today following their publication of some of this "good research" today. You will note that anomisity against the EU and its "benefits" is not confined to the Daily Mail readership............hate to break the steroetype.

Re 2. As per 1. if you are correct then why has Miliband and others apologised for the lack of immigration control in the UK under a Labour administration.........seems an odd political move to make if the effect of 10 years of unprecedented immigration were so positive, especially on wages?

As above the EU has recently produced statistics to support your argument, but that seems to be disconnected with the experience that many British people have in finding and staying in work (particularly in low skilled categories).

And help me out on the history point too, in what context has this country always been a country of immigration? In most of the last 2000 years this country was been regularly invaded by different tribal peoples from the continent of Europe and after many many years of bloodletting and violence the leadership created relative stability by creating inclusive institutions under a hegmoney that was representative of the monocultural judeo christian population that was overwhelmingly prodominant in these islands. The new comers that did come subsequently (like the Hugenouts for example) were able to align themselves with that mono cultural identity.

Re 3. I see you are happy to present yourself as the bourgeoisie...............you points in 1. and 2. are invalid.

 

[Nibble]

As far as I can see, Cameron isn't dictating how the EU is run rather what OUR relationship with the EU is. Having seen numerous governments give away powers to the EU ( both Tory and Labour ), the electorate being conned in the early 70's about what the Common Market was really about, Labour completely back tracking about their promise for a referendum ( COWARDS !!!! ) and anyone under 50 not really having a say on our relationship with the EU it's about time a political party grew some bollocks and gave US the voters a say. At least Cameron and his party ( despite all their faults ) look like doing so - and it has nothing to do with his social background. Only someone with a weak argument would suggest it does.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be good to see if he can get it more in our favour I just don't trust the man. I have to say I think Cameron's attitude and policy is hugely to do with his social background, as any politicians is for good or bad.

 

[User removed 4]

In answer to your PM, I'd happily say anything to your face son, but I'm not in school so I'm not going to organise a scrap with you as you asked. Plus, the fact that you have turned up at other users houses, unannounced and tried to scare their wives on the doorstep means you are very unlikely to be the sort of person I would want to spend any time with. So you can quit the PM's offering me out you xenophobic, ignorant numbskull.

[MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] will be happy to put you right on the accusation that i tried to scare his wife , which wasnt the case at all, pm stands for PRIVATE message in case you didnt know, anyway since its no longer private , lets get it right, you'd be very happy to say anything to my face ? but you've inserted a handy "since i'm not in school i wont do so" get out clause, yes ?

 

[spring hall convert]

You're deluded if you think democracy in this country really works !

How do you mean work? There's no guarantee it's going to "work" other than electing an official using an pre defined set of parameters. It's not democracy's fault if in your eyes people make the wrong voting decisions. That's human free will for you.

Your other option is revolution, either way you need to organise and get people to agree with your point. If it is as clear cut as you say it is then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

The mess the world is in is all relative to the Cold War when we were on the edge of nuclear war.

We're still on the edge of nuclear war because Iran and North Korea have the capability of launching nuclear missiles at any time they feel like it.

 

[User removed 4]

Grow up and stop sending threatening PM's you loon.

anyway, i thought i was on ignore ? not got a lot of willpower have you ?

 

[TSB]

Grow up and stop sending threatening PM's you loon.

Go to see you're making friends, as per normal

 

[Nibble]

[MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] will be happy to put you right on the accusation that i tried to scare his wife , which wasnt the case at all, pm stands for PRIVATE message in case you didnt know, anyway since its no longer private , lets get it right, you'd be very happy to say anything to my face ? but you've inserted a handy "since i'm not in school i wont do so" get out clause, yes ?

You're a grown man Bushy, act as such. If you are gonna spout your dull xenophobic nonsense on every thread then people will oppose that shit. If you can't handle that without offering people out then I suggest you go away and calm down a little.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So what do you make of this then ?
EU plans cuts to subsidies for biggest farms - FT.com

The commission trying to push through reforms, opposed by national governments and the UK farming union.

How do we protect the countryside in a UK centric view of the world ?

This is what a commons select committee recommended.

MPs call for return to headage payments - 2/16/2011 - Farmers Weekly


Paying landowners based on how many head of cattle they can squeeze onto a mountain

It seems either way we pay

Our farmers get a very small percentage of the CAP - I'm not surprised that the NFU would argue for keeping / improving the CAP - it's in a majority of their members interests. My Uncle is a farmer - a venison farmer - and the only money he gets from CAP is to plant hedges - apparently deer don't count ! The CAP is corrupt and out of control and needs scraping completely. If a farm can't be profitable ( my Uncle's is ! ) then why should is survive over any other business ?

 

[goldstone]

Going to be honest with you here, when I walk up the street in Luton I don't hear a word of English being spoken. The residents of this road are now Eastern Europeans, Africans and people from Asian countries. Is it OK to say that I feel like a foreigner in my country.

This situation is exactly what pisses me off about too much uncontrolled immigration. I wonder how Indians, Pakistanis, Somalis, Nigerians, or Poles would feel if whole districts of their cities were taken over by the English?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

One of the biggest problems in this country right now. We're wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers' money on the things. They are inefficient and they pollute the countryside.

Plus we will all be paying an extra £250 a year on our electricity bills within 7 years to meet the green targets.

 

[beorhthelm]

I wish I could make some sense of this. I think I understand how the payment is calculated, but have no idea where they derive the benefit received back from. Even in the extreme case a portion of agricultural subsidy, must in some way translate into lower food prices, would you agree ?

sadly no, it actually leads to higher prices, because a floor has been set in the market below which prices wont go. (not that it makes much difference for us in the western world, where the raw material cost is a small fraction of the cost of most foods).