[Albion] Facundo Buonanotte - SIGNED for 1.8 billion pesos

[Uh_huh_him]

Better than Trossard, Bissouma, Caicedo and Mac Allister?!! That is a hell of a leap of faith based on what we've seen so far.

I keep reading that there's a player there, he will come good and be great for us etc. I would love to know examples of what that is based on as he hasn't shown anything for us at all yet? As @hans kraay fan club said, he's a passenger when he plays.

I would love those positive posters to be right but he looks way off it at the moment. Even Brighton can get it wrong with young players sometimes.

There is a huge misconception that all the players we have signed have immediately made an impact for us.

Cucurella and Caicedo are the only ones that have, IMO.
Bissouma, Mac, Trossard were all very hot and cold in the first year or so.

I can remember a great deal of "waste of money" comments about Trossard in particular.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Better than Trossard, Bissouma, Caicedo and Mac Allister?!! That is a hell of a leap of faith based on what we've seen so far.

I keep reading that there's a player there, he will come good and be great for us etc. I would love to know examples of what that is based on as he hasn't shown anything for us at all yet? As @hans kraay fan club said, he's a passenger when he plays.

I would love those positive posters to be right but he looks way off it at the moment. Even Brighton can get it wrong with young players sometimes.

I’ll just be clear that I bounced this thread to highlight the door is open for him after Solly’s injury. I’m pretty close to your viewpoint though slightly more optimistic (I think this partly comes from remembering how bad Enciso was early on).

We really could do with him stepping up as our team is about to look very unbalanced with a host of right-footed players.

 

[Zeberdi]

There is a huge misconception that all the players we have signed have immediately made an impact for us.

Cucurella and Caicedo are the only ones that have, IMO.

- and even Caicedo needed a 6 month loan period and 18 mnths before making the impact he did.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think you’ve nailed it with his skill set. Hopefully this is what he’s been working on in training.

I might have nailed it. Only the going down the line can be worked on in training. RDZ and his coaching team might work wonders, but I don't think they'll be able to find a way for Facundo to have devastating pace.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I might have nailed it. Only the going down the line can be worked on in training. RDZ and his coaching team might work wonders, but I don't think they'll be able to find a way for Facundo to have devastating pace.

Yeh, I think the only chance Facu has of playing out wide in the longer term, is if he can find Beckham levels of quality and consistency of delivery. Otherwise, there simply is no point continuing to put him out there.

 

[AstroSloth]

And alternative explanation is his skill set. I'll mention two that might explain that view. First, he's not blessed with blistering pace and acceleration which is what you expect from a wide player. But he's no slouch, and the best wide players can adapt (Messi has done as he's aged; Giggs did it too). Second, in order to play wide, you need to go both ways; Buonanotte tends to cut inside onto his stronger left foot, and going done the line on the right is something he's going to have to do more of, not only to keep defenders second-guessing what he's going to do, but also because there's more space there. He's bright enough, serious enough and the coaching staff are competent enough to address these factors.
I doubt we'll see him play as a 'number 10' in our formation this season, at the very least.

The biggest issue IMO is that with his skillset as you say he likes to cut inside.

This wouldn't be an issue if he was paired with say an Estupinan type fullback who overlaps him. However he is often paired with a fullback who doesn't overlap as much, Groß, Milner or Veltman for example. If he had an overlapping fullback he could look to cut inside and then play the fullback in behind like you see Mitoma do quite a lot with Estupinan, and it means the defender has to look for him either cutting inside or playing the overlapping fullback in.

 

[Machiavelli]

Because he has said so himself - and RDZ said as much when we signed him that he could potentially be a replacement for McAllister. For my part, one of the few goals he has scored for us was from a number 10 position, because watching him play, despite being used largely wide, he has a natural tendency to drift inward - average heat maps out of 4 games, April 2023

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- he is a dribbler and has an ability to change direction really quickly in high acceleration stop-starts rather than being a straight line sprinter (which makes him very useful in the 18 yard area imo).

If he is good enough to play for Argentina he’s good enough for us - he needs much more match experience and to learn the ‘DNA’ as it were but he has excellent potential and positional versatility…(imo!)

Thanks for having a go. I'm not convinced, but let me elaborate what was on my mind, and I didn't fully express.
I'm thinking of those that will get minutes this season in all competitions. We've got loads of 'number 10s' and although some might quibble about who plays there, this includes Fati, JP, Lallana, Gross, Enciso and, potentially Moder too. At the moment, we haven't got loads of wide right forwards. Solly was the first pick there, but he's had to cover for Pervis' absence and the fear is that we might not see him play again this season. Adingra was the alternative, and now is first pick. Who else can play there? Buonanotte is one and, beyond that, potentially Fati, JP and Lamptey. We'll see about how JP and Fati do there if they play (as they haven't as yet) but if they do play wide right, they won't be playing in their favoured position as number 10/support-striker/pocket-maestro. We kind of need them there, at least until Enciso comes back, because as the front two, we're likely to be without Welbeck for at least a month (looked like a hamstring), Fergie's workload needs to be managed, Lallana can't play too many consecutive minutes, and Gross will probably be needed elsewhere.
Now back to wide right. Whenever Enciso has played on the right, he's looked a shadow of when he's played as a number 10 or wide left, so I don't think he's the solution when he returns. Lamptey is currently out, and will probably be needed in the full back positions. And that leaves Buonanotte as the only cover for Adingra -- who can't play twice a week for 95+ minutes, and is still learning the requirements of the role (on which see this week's MotD analysis: it wasn't just Milner at fault for City's first half dominance, he wasn't given enough support).

I'm not that convinced by the argument about him being a number 10 because he cuts inside from the right either: that's what the modern inverted winger does (they also need to go down the line and, on this, thanks for posting the two heat maps as it illustrates the point I was making: Solly does it, Facundo needs to learn to do more of it).

 

[Machiavelli]

The biggest issue IMO is that with his skillset as you say he likes to cut inside.

This wouldn't be an issue if he was paired with say an Estupinan type fullback who overlaps him. However he is often paired with a fullback who doesn't overlap as much, Groß, Milner or Veltman for example. If he had an overlapping fullback he could look to cut inside and then play the fullback in behind like you see Mitoma do quite a lot with Estupinan, and it means the defender has to look for him either cutting inside or playing the overlapping fullback in.

This is a good point. I think he'd probably work better with Lamptey bombing down the line from RB in terms of our attacking threat. What that does to our defence, on the other hand, is a different question.
I can see why a replica of Pervis at RB appeals but, returning to my previous point, that will likely compromise our defensive shape. Read Jonathan Wilson on how Pep has adapted his defensive formation to have a 3 as security (supplemented by a two in-front) when in possession to nullify opposition's counter-attacks. I think RDZ similarly wants a defensive 3 when we have possession, which rules out having two full backs bombing on (ie Pervis and a RB replica).

 

[Farehamseagull]

Thanks for having a go. I'm not convinced, but let me elaborate what was on my mind, and I didn't fully express.
I'm thinking of those that will get minutes this season in all competitions. We've got loads of 'number 10s' and although some might quibble about who plays there, this includes Fati, JP, Lallana, Gross, Enciso and, potentially Moder too. At the moment, we haven't got loads of wide right forwards. Solly was the first pick there, but he's had to cover for Pervis' absence and the fear is that we might not see him play again this season. Adingra was the alternative, and now is first pick. Who else can play there? Buonanotte is one and, beyond that, potentially Fati, JP and Lamptey. We'll see about how JP and Fati do there if they play (as they haven't as yet) but if they do play wide right, they won't be playing in their favoured position as number 10/support-striker/pocket-maestro. We kind of need them there, at least until Enciso comes back, because as the front two, we're likely to be without Welbeck for at least a month (looked like a hamstring), Fergie's workload needs to be managed, Lallana can't play too many consecutive minutes, and Gross will probably be needed elsewhere.
Now back to wide right. Whenever Enciso has played on the right, he's looked a shadow of when he's played as a number 10 or wide left, so I don't think he's the solution when he returns. Lamptey is currently out, and will probably be needed in the full back positions. And that leaves Buonanotte as the only cover for Adingra -- who can't play twice a week for 95+ minutes, and is still learning the requirements of the role (on which see this week's MotD analysis: it wasn't just Milner at fault for City's first half dominance, he wasn't given enough support).

I'm not that convinced by the argument about him being a number 10 because he cuts inside from the right either: that's what the modern inverted winger does (they also need to go down the line and, on this, thanks for posting the two heat maps as it illustrates the point I was making: Solly does it, Facundo needs to learn to do more of it).

We were linked with a lot of right sided attackers in the summer weren’t we? I think we probably were trying to get one as we do look a little light there. Adingra played more on the left before joining us didn’t he too?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

We were linked with a lot of right sided attackers in the summer weren’t we? I think we probably were trying to get one as we do look a little light there. Adingra played more on the left before joining us didn’t he too?

I think Adingra would rather play on the left. He does a pretty good job of looking two-footed but his preference is his right foot.

Unfortunately for Tony’s bank balance, I think RDZ is going to have to ask him to get his chequebook out in January for a speedy, left-footed wide player.

 

[Farehamseagull]

This is a good point. I think he'd probably work better with Lamptey bombing down the line from RB in terms of our attacking threat. What that does to our defence, on the other hand, is a different question.
I can see why a replica of Pervis at RB appeals but, returning to my previous point, that will likely compromise our defensive shape. Read Jonathan Wilson on how Pep has adapted his defensive formation to have a 3 as security (supplemented by a two in-front) when in possession to nullify opposition's counter-attacks. I think RDZ similarly wants a defensive 3 when we have possession, which rules out having two full backs bombing on (ie Pervis and a RB replica).

Having Lamptey playing on the right would possibly add something for us in an attacking sense with FB on the right but I would really worry defensively as you say.

As I've said before, I ideally wouldn't play FB as i don't think he's anywhere near good enough at the moment. But if we have to due to injuries, the only position I can see for him currently is playing as a very poor man's Jack Grealish for City last season where he was basically there to move the team up the pitch, hold the ball, cut back and lay it off to other players.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Can I use this thread bump to make a plea? The NSC consensus is that Buonanotte's best position is a 'number 10'. Presumably because he's from Argentina. Argentina's current number 10 and WC winning captain plays on the right. Brighton's past number 10 from Argentina -- and now Liverpool's number 10 -- might have fancied himself as a number 10, but he's more usually used in a deeper CM role.
For those that insist Buonanotte's best position is a number 10: how do you know? Is it because he played in that role in Rosario? If so, my memory (which often fails) tells me he was primarily deployed on the right? Is it because he's played in that role for Brighton? If so, we can probably count on our fingers the number of minutes he's played there, which is hardly a basis.
And alternative explanation is his skill set. I'll mention two that might explain that view. First, he's not blessed with blistering pace and acceleration which is what you expect from a wide player. But he's no slouch, and the best wide players can adapt (Messi has done as he's aged; Giggs did it too). Second, in order to play wide, you need to go both ways; Buonanotte tends to cut inside onto his stronger left foot, and going done the line on the right is something he's going to have to do more of, not only to keep defenders second-guessing what he's going to do, but also because there's more space there. He's bright enough, serious enough and the coaching staff are competent enough to address these factors.
I doubt we'll see him play as a 'number 10' in our formation this season, at the very least.

Yep. this is the role (i.e wide) I thought we'd have him working on in training, rather than a '10' (which is nebulous anyway, Gross was a '10' in Hughton's first EPL season when we played 4-4-1-1, Lallana can be a 10 but so can Pedro, Welbeck and Fati - Gross and Lallana are very different to the other three).

It's not only going on the outside though. Hopefully he's been working on tracking back and also bulking up like Enciso did. At the moment, while you're correct he tends to cut inside, he also doesn't have the strength to fend off EPL players and doesn't do enough defensive work.

No one can fix his pace but all those other things can be worked on in training until they become natural.

 

[GT49er]

There is a huge misconception that all the players we have signed have immediately made an impact for us.

Cucurella and Caicedo are the only ones that have, IMO.

You've missed out Estupinan.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

You've missed out Estupinan.

Estupinan was a bit different.
He was brought in to replace a first teamer and was already a UCL/UEL level player.

 

[GT49er]

Estupinan was a bit different.
He was brought in to replace a first teamer and was already a UCL/UEL level player.

Cucurella was also a Europa League level player, at Getafe..............

 

[Jim in the West]

I was having a tea break, so did a search on "youngest EPL payers for 23/24 season". Buonanotte is the 26th youngest. None of the 25 younger than him have made any sort of impression on the Premier League (Ben Doak is one of them - he's 18 next month and has made 3 sub appearances for Liverpool; Jack Hinshelwood is actually one of the few who has started an EPL game). Rico Lewis and Evan Ferguson are the standouts - both slightly older than FB....you can possibly add Stefan Bajcetic (a couple of months older than FB, but even he's only made 6 starts for Liverpool).

If you take everyone who is 20 or younger in an EPL squad (64 players, according to worldfootball.net) , the only other notables are Julio Enciso, and (probably) Romeo Lavia. Jhon Duran is getting good reviews, but hasn't actually started an EPL game for Villa yet. Carlos Baleba is also in the mix, by the way - but very early days obvs.

Looking at those under-20 who have started an EPL game, we have 5, which is more than any other team.

Anyway, back to work...

 

[London Irish]

Because he has said so himself - and RDZ said as much when we signed him that he could potentially be a replacement for McAllister. For my part, one of the few goals he has scored for us was from a number 10 position, because watching him play, despite being used largely wide, he has a natural tendency to drift inward - average heat maps out of 4 games, April 2023

l
View attachment 168431
Solly 22/23
View attachment 168433

Solly March stats and ratings | Sofascore

Solly March profile player page. Goals, matches, stats, player ratings and more.

www.sofascore.com

- he is a dribbler and has an ability to change direction really quickly in high acceleration stop-starts rather than being a straight line sprinter (which makes him very useful in the 18 yard area imo).

If he is good enough to play for Argentina he’s good enough for us - he needs much more match experience and to learn the ‘DNA’ as it were but he has excellent potential and positional versatility…(imo!)

Agreed and hasn't there been stories about his non-footballing adjustment issues - if one player needs time, it's definitely him

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Cucurella was also a Europa League level player, at Getafe..............

So both examples back up my point..........

 

[GT49er]

So both examples back up my point..........

Your point? Huh! I'm claiming it!

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Your point? Huh! I'm claiming it!

My point was, the young players we buy generally take a couple of seasons before they can really be assessed.
We got lucky with Cucurella and Caicedo.
But our model is to develop players over 2-3 seasons.

Way too early to judge Buananotte