Clubs that prosper soon after administration..

[m20gull]

This is not uniquely a football problem, it is because of the laws surrounding limited liability. Effectively, no-one is liable for a company's debts, except the company itself. Simplistlcally put, if the company folds, then so does its liability to pay those debts. It is wrong, and the only solution would be for any company to have at least one person (owner) to be responsible for any debts of the company. The trouble is, how would this be implemented for existing companies? Would the directors suddenly become personally responsible? Is this fair?

In football however, it should be the case that if a club goes under owing money, then they should only be able to reform from the bottom of the footballing pyramid (new company = new club). This may be unfair on the fans, but what about the club's creditors?

It would not be fair for companies generally as no director would take the risk of setting up a company and losing all their personal wealth. Limited liability is an inspired idea that allows trade and business to flourish.

Even in sport it works but administration is different. Administration allows clubs to spend money they do not have and distort the principle of competition. I am fed up with the "35 years in the top two divisions". The only reason we ended up 91st was because when the club got in to debt it sold assets to pay them and worked its way back. The reason we are where we are now is to do with the generosity of our chairman; it is not supplemented by £30m of written-off debts.

The punishment for administration needs to be greater and more similar to liquidation. Fans don't suffer. If you truly love Palace then you would follow the replacement (let's call it CPFC 2010) in the Ryman South until the right day comes around. Until this situation exists clubs that do pay their debts will always be pissed at clubs that don't. When it is both of your local rivals, five times between them, that is going to anger.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I think Leicester are the worst offenders in terms of gaining an unfair advantage, as they 1) built a new stadium, 2) brought in a team of Premier League players, got relegated, went into admin, cleared off all of the debt from 1) & 2) above, and then proceeded to gain promotion back to the Premier League without any form of penalty. It was this one incident that forced the FA / League to bring in the penalties for going into admin.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But the debt issues took place far before Falmer was even at the planning stage.

I agree but Bloom didn't have his fortune in 97, we had to sell assets, players and were homeless as has been pointed out by Bwian.

 

[withdeanwombat]

It's the law that's an ass,not the genuine supporters of these clubs.The FA could stop such things happening via the relegation process.Wouldn't help the small firms being out of pocket,but I suppose they could point their collective fingers and laugh.

 

[loz]

Well, "There by the grace of god" and all that.

I think Leicester and Leeds have both done quite well out of going in Admin, in fact did not Leicester get premoted the very season they went in to Admin??

Lets get on to Palace..I think the last admin was called by a very nervous loan company calling in the depts on simon Jordon which were 4 million, the club had debts of about 9 million (not the 30 people keep saying) they were 8th in the league with a sniff of the play offs. They then sold Moses to Wigan for 3 mill that money went to pay the major debt, they lost 10 points that put them near the bottom and Warnock left !!

A few more players left and the club just about stayed up!!

It must be remembered that Palace did not call in the administrators, they were forced on them, this is a big diffrence from what LCFC, LUC and PFC did as they called in the administrators to protect themselfs.

Anyway I can tell you I spent about 4 months shitting myself we would have no club!! so to say we did not suffer is just not true.

 

[Bwian]

42 clubs have been in administration, that would make the League 2 fixture list very congested!

In the last 2 years?

If the football authorities actually punished clubs severely then there would be nowhere near 42 clubs who have been in administration-they would have either found a financial solution or gone out of business . Clubs like Palace and Portsmouth who are multiple offenders should have been made to start at the bottom of the pyramid as part of their second administrations but were given the easy get-out option allowed by the FL.

Please stop comparing our situation to Palace's. They have not been affected at all-as their trolls regularly remind us. We have numerous books dedicated to our 16+ years of troubles. Yes, we all know that Tony Bloom rescued us and without him who knows what would have happened? No Albion probably. Meanwhile, Palace carry on as if the 2 administrations never happened.

 

[Bwian]

Anyway I can tell you I spent about 4 months shitting myself we would have no club!! so to say we did not suffer is just not true.

That must have been awful-I didn't realise you Palace fans had suffered so much for so long.

 

[loz]

That must have been awful-I didn't realise you Palace fans had suffered so much for so long.

Point taken!!

And all you BHA fans should be rightly proud of what you have achieved, but to keep banging on about teams using admin to gain advantage is just not true in the case of Palace.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well, "There by the grace of god" and all that.

Anyway I can tell you I spent about 4 months shitting myself we would have no club!! so to say we did not suffer is just not true.

My heart bleeds for you.

 

[Hillian1]

Point taken!!

And all you BHA fans should be rightly proud of what you have achieved, but to keep banging on about teams using admin to gain advantage is just not true in the case of Palace.

I'll give you the Jordan one, although the fact remains you still went into Admin and DID gain an advantage because you had the debt wiped, what about the 1st one, what happened there?

 

[OSRGull]

f***ing hell, might as well rename NSC and change it to the BBS2

 

[bernster]

The punishment for going into admin needs to be harsher.as outlined in previous posts automatic relegation and/or restrictions on promotions would be a more realistic punishment and may help focus the minds of the money men who infest football these days.
Also the football creditors rule needs to done away with.The idea that the "football family"gets priority over debt is,frankly,ridiculous.This rule enables shysters such as Chanerai at pompey to be ahead of h.m.r.c or st johns ambulance in the q for recompense from bad debt.it may also encourage deals between football clubs to be based on actually paying up front as they would be aware that they are just as likely as anyone else to lose money as anyone else if the buying club goes tits up.it may also act as a break on inflated fees and ,perhaps,wages

- - - Updated - - -

The punishment for going into admin needs to be harsher.as outlined in previous posts automatic relegation and/or restrictions on promotions would be a more realistic punishment and may help focus the minds of the money men who infest football these days.
Also the football creditors rule needs to done away with.The idea that the "football family"gets priority over debt is,frankly,ridiculous.This rule enables shysters such as Chanerai at pompey to be ahead of h.m.r.c or st johns ambulance in the q for recompense from bad debt.it may also encourage deals between football clubs to be based on actually paying up front as they would be aware that they are just as likely as anyone else to lose money as anyone else if the buying club goes tits up.it may also act as a break on inflated fees and ,perhaps,wages

 

[loz]

I'll give you the Jordan one, although the fact remains you still went into Admin and DID gain an advantage because you had the debt wiped, what about the 1st one, what happened there?

We did, but we were servicing the debt (just about) until a loan company called in Simon Jordons debt that he lent to the club.

The 1st Admin?? Well thats what happens when a madman gets a bit of paper money and gets carried away!!

In saying that Goldberg still watches the Palace with his boy and I often used to see him cutting a lonley figure watching the game all by himself>

I read these boards with a baffeled look on my face sometimes. BHA have come from crowds of 1600 to selling out a nice new ground with 25000 fans in 10 years, but instead of patting yourselfs on the back all you seem to do is slag off either Palace or pompey about admin, state of the grounds or smaller crowds!!...take a look at your own club and write about the good things about BHA not just look at the bad thing in other clubs, Your like the daily mail of football clubs.

still going to give you a good old fashion licking on the first though!!!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I read these boards with a baffeled look on my face sometimes. BHA have come from crowds of 1600 to selling out a nice new ground with 25000 fans in 10 years, but instead of patting yourselfs on the back all you seem to do is slag off either Palace or pompey about admin, state of the grounds or smaller crowds!!...take a look at your own club and write about the good things about BHA not just look at the bad thing in other clubs, Your like the daily mail of football clubs.

still going to give you a good old fashion licking on the first though!!!

It was 14 years and there are Palace fans who come on here bragging about how they've spent 35 years in the top 2 divisions. There's one poster with that as his username. Of course we're going to react.

 

[Hillian1]

We did, but we were servicing the debt (just about) until a loan company called in Simon Jordons debt that he lent to the club.

The 1st Admin?? Well thats what happens when a madman gets a bit of paper money and gets carried away!!

In saying that Goldberg still watches the Palace with his boy and I often used to see him cutting a lonley figure watching the game all by himself>

I read these boards with a baffeled look on my face sometimes. BHA have come from crowds of 1600 to selling out a nice new ground with 25000 fans in 10 years, but instead of patting yourselfs on the back all you seem to do is slag off either Palace or pompey about admin, state of the grounds or smaller crowds!!...take a look at your own club and write about the good things about BHA not just look at the bad thing in other clubs, Your like the daily mail of football clubs.

still going to give you a good old fashion licking on the first though!!!

I agree with you on the slagging off part, although I am guilty of that.

But you have to at least try and see why it pisses many off when your lot post things like 35 years top 2 divisions, we got screwed and although we too have not paid debts in full the circumstances were hugely different, the business' owed the money got a large part of it paid and it was completely voluntary, had it not been we would not exist now.

 

[m20gull]

We did, but we were servicing the debt (just about) until a loan company called in Simon Jordons debt that he lent to the club.

That's as strong an argument as I have seen for tougher punishment on administration and some transparency over club ownership/financing.

I read these boards with a baffeled look on my face sometimes. BHA have come from crowds of 1600 to selling out a nice new ground with 25000 fans in 10 years, but instead of patting yourselfs on the back all you seem to do is slag off either Palace or pompey about admin, state of the grounds or smaller crowds!!...take a look at your own club and write about the good things about BHA not just look at the bad thing in other clubs, Your like the daily mail of football clubs.

We love writing about the good things but there's no escaping Palace's position in this league.

still going to give you a good old fashion licking on the first though!!!

Hope this doesn't get taken out of context

 

[Publius Ovidius]

one of the ones that really got my goat was the Leicester episode, where they build a new stadium and don't pay anyone for it and are then "rewarded" an England u21 game soon after.

That was bloody scandalous.

 

[HastingsSeagull]

Saints paid it back eventually and so nothing wrong there. Should have taken their 10 point penalty and got on with it which they did and now look at them In the Prem and spending 12 mil on a single player but it's their choice and THEIR MONEY

Portsmouth and palace CHEATED and should be made to pay back any debts IN FULL by paying 10% of all profits at season end (even if yearly profit is £1) to their outstanding creditors. If they fail to make a profit (even £1) they should be made to pay £1,000,000 of debts instantly on last day of season out of the next year's TV money or be kicked out the football league (and loose the 2-3 mil from Champ tv money or whatever league they are in's value). Simples. If takes 50 years to repay who cares and could easilly be interest free as still a massive improvement on paying someone 1p for every £1 you owe and then spunking money up the wall a season later! Portsmouth are an even worse example!

 

[Nodnol]

one of the ones that really got my goat was the Leicester episode, where they build a new stadium and don't pay anyone for it and are then "rewarded" an England u21 game soon after.

That was bloody scandalous.

Exactly. Same with Leeds trying to pull a fast one by putting the club directly into administration the second their relegation was confirmed.

Too many clubs, such as Palace, Pompey, Rangers etc have fallen into administration due to poor management.

Seeing as this thread was primarily started with regards to Palace, when you look at how the club has been run in the last twenty plus year, it really is cringeworthy. Noades isn't particularly liked by Palace fans, and helped himself to any money in Palace throughout his time as Chairman and royally screwed over Goldberg. Goldberg had his heart on the right place but shouldn't have ever been given the power to own a football club. Jordan was an egotistical businessman who genuinely loved the club he supports, but his arrogance got the better of him.

Ultimately I think it's important to realise that individuals have been the problem for many clubs, and tarring all with the same brush isn't very productive, nor sensible. To say Palace as a club in general are moraly wrong, or accountable for our financial troubles in the past, is off the mark.

The fact is, football clubs are businesses in this day and age, and are subject to the appropriate law. Until that changes, there won't be more done on this. Sure the FA adjusted their views in light of Leicester taking the mickey, but can anyone honestly see any real change occurring? They barely have a spine as it is.

To say we have prospered from administration is a little off the mark. Back to back relegation battles, the squad decimated, points deductions and not to mention nearly going out of business entirely. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I prey no one here ever has to fear the club they love disappearing.

Let's not forget that since that day, the club hasn't really achieved anything apart from a half decent run last season, a good cup run and of course our start this season. The biggest advantages have been off the field though. The fans united and rallied, expectations were brought back down to earth and people's views were knocked back into touch. Through our current owners, the club is run far more sensibly, and our academy is slowly but surely providing reasonable talent that is making its mark on our first team, not to mention potentially lucrative transfers.

Honestly, as a Palace fan, the club feels completely different to how I've always know it. Now I can appreciate from other's point of view, particularly your own, that won't be apparent, but it's true. The entire mentality of the club has changed, though some people will always live in the past. There is a lot of positives going for us at the moment, and that's not counting what's currently happening on the pitch. If only we could give our shed a lick of paint....

To look at this in a realistic manner, you have to remove any rivalries. This is bigger than either of us, and a problem for football in general. Should there be tougher sanctions in place for administration? Absolutely. However, there should also be tougher actions taken to ensure clubs are run properly. That's the real issue; whether it be financial motivation, or some other agenda, too many clubs are being run poorly. Fingers crossed Parish and co. know what they are doing (so far so good on that front).

Ultimately, I think the real problem with English football is the state of the Premier League and everything it stands for. It's destroying our national team, our youth, and poisoning the football league. Most people seem to blame Sky and how that has effected the game, but the FA don't have the balls to do anything. Financial Fair Play is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough.

The sooner the BPL implodes, the better, because the game will come back stronger and better for it in the long run. Until then, all I care about is my club being run sensibly and maintaining its financial health. It's a shame we've had the checkered past when it comes to finances, because it's nothing to be proud of. All the gloating and banter on the world isn't worth losing your club over.

Is it right that we haven't been thoroughly ****** by our recent administrations? Not really, but the problem lies with the relevant governing bodies. Don't hate the player, hate the game, and all that. The last ten years haven't been without their scars though, but we don't deserve an ounce of sympathy, because we are still in business. I'm grateful, and I guess in a backwards way I would hope you are too; who would honestly want this rivalry to cease to exist? I would never ever wish any of this on any club, and especially you, because football wouldn't have that spark that rivalries bring.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Exactly. Same with Leeds trying to pull a fast one by putting the club directly into administration the second their relegation was confirmed.

Too many clubs, such as Palace, Pompey, Rangers etc have fallen into administration due to poor management.

Seeing as this thread was primarily started with regards to Palace, when you look at how the club has been run in the last twenty plus year, it really is cringeworthy. Noades isn't particularly liked by Palace fans, and helped himself to any money in Palace throughout his time as Chairman and royally screwed over Goldberg. Goldberg had his heart on the right place but shouldn't have ever been given the power to own a football club. Jordan was an egotistical businessman who genuinely loved the club he supports, but his arrogance got the better of him.

Ultimately I think it's important to realise that individuals have been the problem for many clubs, and tarring all with the same brush isn't very productive, nor sensible. To say Palace as a club in general are moraly wrong, or accountable for our financial troubles in the past, is off the mark.

The fact is, football clubs are businesses in this day and age, and are subject to the appropriate law. Until that changes, there won't be more done on this. Sure the FA adjusted their views in light of Leicester taking the mickey, but can anyone honestly see any real change occurring? They barely have a spine as it is.

To say we have prospered from administration is a little off the mark. Back to back relegation battles, the squad decimated, points deductions and not to mention nearly going out of business entirely. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I prey no one here ever has to fear the club they love disappearing.

Let's not forget that since that day, the club hasn't really achieved anything apart from a half decent run last season, a good cup run and of course our start this season. The biggest advantages have been off the field though. The fans united and rallied, expectations were brought back down to earth and people's views were knocked back into touch. Through our current owners, the club is run far more sensibly, and our academy is slowly but surely providing reasonable talent that is making its mark on our first team, not to mention potentially lucrative transfers.

Honestly, as a Palace fan, the club feels completely different to how I've always know it. Now I can appreciate from other's point of view, particularly your own, that won't be apparent, but it's true. The entire mentality of the club has changed, though some people will always live in the past. There is a lot of positives going for us at the moment, and that's not counting what's currently happening on the pitch. If only we could give our shed a lick of paint....

To look at this in a realistic manner, you have to remove any rivalries. This is bigger than either of us, and a problem for football in general. Should there be tougher sanctions in place for administration? Absolutely. However, there should also be tougher actions taken to ensure clubs are run properly. That's the real issue; whether it be financial motivation, or some other agenda, too many clubs are being run poorly. Fingers crossed Parish and co. know what they are doing (so far so good on that front).

Ultimately, I think the real problem with English football is the state of the Premier League and everything it stands for. It's destroying our national team, our youth, and poisoning the football league. Most people seem to blame Sky and how that has effected the game, but the FA don't have the balls to do anything. Financial Fair Play is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough.

The sooner the BPL implodes, the better, because the game will come back stronger and better for it in the long run. Until then, all I care about is my club being run sensibly and maintaining its financial health. It's a shame we've had the checkered past when it comes to finances, because it's nothing to be proud of. All the gloating and banter on the world isn't worth losing your club over.

Is it right that we haven't been thoroughly ****** by our recent administrations? Not really, but the problem lies with the relevant governing bodies. Don't hate the player, hate the game, and all that. The last ten years haven't been without their scars though, but we don't deserve an ounce of sympathy, because we are still in business. I'm grateful, and I guess in a backwards way I would hope you are too; who would honestly want this rivalry to cease to exist? I would never ever wish any of this on any club, and especially you, because football wouldn't have that spark that rivalries bring.

excellent post.

You wont last long on here as you talk sense!