Europe: In or Out

Deleted member 22389 · Feb 4, 2016

Channel 4, keeping up with the khan's. What a piss take.

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

Soulman said:
So why has it taken so long to achieve hard wire competitiveness, only now after it is getting close to a vote is Dave trying to (and not succeeding really) to get better deals.

Well since the crash it's just been perpetual crisis and fire-fighting mode. The reforms that have been taking place are slow and painful, Greece has suffered terribly and growth is still slow. Things like the EU fiscal compact are signs of progress but there is still a lot to do. We can see how much of the competitiveness agenda (not entirely sure what the substance of this demand actually is) sticks.

beorhthelm · Feb 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
This could be something, or most likely absolutely nothing. Its 2016, and data collection can be, and generally is, incredibly simple. Even assuming the most analogue of data capture systems I'm struggling to under stand where the burden is. And, if it is a resource hit, it will most likely just be a one off hit (we now live in the computer age). Go on, why don't you just admit you found this on the Internet and don't really know what you're talking about? And is this really the best you can find?

you dont work in data presumably. and you haven't addressed how to deal with the problem of multinational taxation in the EU.

Soulman · Feb 4, 2016

5ways said:
Well since the crash it's just been perpetual crisis and fire-fighting mode. The reforms that have been taking place are slow and painful, Greece has suffered terribly and growth is still slow. Things like the EU fiscal compact are signs of progress but there is still a lot to do. We can see how much of the competitiveness agenda (not entirely sure what the substance of this demand actually is) sticks.

Well for the last nearly 6 years in power Dave has not gone to the EU to get these deals, why not?, could it be that he realises that the referendum is nearly upon us.
It begs the question why IF we get these "deals" that he is "fighting" for, did he not do it a long time ago.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 4, 2016

beorhthelm said:
you dont work in data presumably

I do

beorhthelm said:
you haven't addressed how to deal with the problem of multinational taxation in the EU.

I operate in both UK and Germany and deal with this but it really isn't a problem. Overall it much easier because of the EU. You'll have to trust me that I know the EU tax and VAT system very well.

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

Soulman said:
Well for the last nearly 6 years in power Dave has not gone to the EU to get these deals, why not?, could it be that he realises that the referendum is nearly upon us.
It begs the question why IF we get these "deals" that he is "fighting" for, did he not do it a long time ago.

It is politics. His tribe of tories want to kick Europe into the long grass. Europe destroys Tory leaderships. The referendum has been forced upon him so now he has to deal with it. It will be his final victory, having seen off the AV, Scottish and EU referendum. Also he was in a weaker personal position during the coalition. This election he won outright on a manifesto that supported staying a reformed Europe.

It's the same reason he doesn't want to deal with House of Lords reform (maybe), it's too much of a headache and not high on the agenda but has to be dealt with eventually. If he started up a Euro debate any earlier it would have dominated his premiership.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 4, 2016

5ways said:
It is politics. His tribe of tories want to kick Europe into the long grass. Europe destroys Tory leaderships. The referendum has been forced upon him so now he has to deal with it. It will be his final victory, having seen off the AV, Scottish and EU referendum. Also he was in a weaker personal position during the coalition. This election he won outright on a manifesto that supported staying a reformed Europe.

It's the same reason he doesn't want to deal with House of Lords reform (maybe), it's too much of a headache and not high on the agenda. If he started up a Euro debate any earlier it would have dominated his premiership.

I agree with most of this but it wasn't forced upon him. It was due to his weak leadership. Any other leader wouldn't have been coerced into this nonsense. It says a lot we've had three referendums under Cameron. He's supposed to lead, not take his cue from a vote every 5 minutes.

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I agree with most of this but it wasn't forced upon him. It was due to his weak leadership. Any other leader wouldn't have been coerced into this nonsense. It says a lot we've had three referendums under Cameron. He's supposed to lead, not take his cue from a vote every 5 minutes.

I think without the referendum you could have seen a split in the party. Besides this puts the issue to bed. As Delia put it "let's be having you!"

melias shoes · Feb 4, 2016

nicko31 said:
2% of the budget. If we left that 2% would still need to be spent dealing with loads of bureaucracy undoing all the EU things that are already in place and functioning.

Yes and once that was done those extra BILlIONS would come in really handy wouldn't they.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 4, 2016

5ways said:
I think without the referendum you could have seen a split in the party. Besides this puts the issue to bed. As Delia put it "let's be having you!"

I fundamentally don't agree with rule by referenda though. We should elect people to lead.

beorhthelm · Feb 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I operate in both UK and Germany and deal with this but it really isn't a problem. Overall it much easier because of the EU. You'll have to trust me that I know the EU tax and VAT system very well.

i wrote that poorly, taxation of multinationals. you were complaining of how Google appears to pay insufficient tax earlier, when its well documented (if ignored) that they utilise the EU to minimise their tax. whats the resolution?

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

melias shoes said:
Yes and once that was done those extra BILlIONS would come in really handy wouldn't they.

Yes we can use those BILLIONS to pay export tariffs and lawyers fees. Not to mention the BILLIONS of lost inward investment.

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I fundamentally don't agree with rule by referenda though. We should elect people to lead.

I think some issues are so great and consequential that to be legitimate they must have direct public approval. We can get over the 'this isn't what we signed up for' hump and get to work.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 4, 2016

5ways said:
I think some issues are so great and consequential that to be legitimate they must have direct public approval. We can get over the 'this isn't what we signed up for' hump and get to work.

I see your point, but it's not my preferred way.

nicko31 · Feb 4, 2016

Blue Valkyrie said:
UKIP don't like you mentioning the breakup of the UK. Scaremongering apparently. I would have thought they'd be very happy to cut lose the foreigners

A brexit would Sturgeon the best excuse to go the polls again and I'd think she'd win. Think it really is a pivotal moment in our history, most in the OUT camp either haven't thought it through.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 4, 2016

nicko31 said:
A brexit would Sturgeon the best excuse to go the polls again and I'd think she'd win. Think it really is a pivotal moment in our history, most in the OUT camp either haven't thought it through.

The impact on Northern and Southern Ireland will be interesting as well. At the very least the UK will go from a soft to a hard border.

GT49er · Feb 4, 2016

5ways said:
Yes we can use those BILLIONS to pay export tariffs and lawyers fees.

So we don't pay it then - trade can be carried on without parasites

5ways said:
Not to mention the BILLIONS of lost inward investment.

No, not to mention what won't happen. Waste of time mentioning it really..............

melias shoes · Feb 4, 2016

For what it's worth as much as I want out I can't see it happening.

5ways · Feb 4, 2016

beorhthelm said:
i wrote that poorly, taxation of multinationals. you were complaining of how Google appears to pay insufficient tax earlier, when its well documented (if ignored) that they utilise the EU to minimise their tax. whats the resolution?

No easy resolution but see post 252:
http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?332756-Europe-In-or-Out/page26

It will be much easier to pin down multinational tax inside the EU then outside it. See http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc1e3cd4-c...1cd71622e.html

GT49er · Feb 4, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
I fundamentally don't agree with rule by referenda though. We should elect people to lead.

Dictators lead; referenda are democracy at work.

I'm fed up of the two party system of offering us package deals. "I disagree with 50% of what's in your manifesto, but on the other hand I only agree with 30% of their's. So I'd better vote for you as the best of a bad lot". Shining advert for democracy, that.

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