Europe: In or Out

[Chief Wiggum]

I think you should vote for what you believe in, not your personal circumstances.

I have the right to duel nationality. My wife does and one of my four adult kids already has it. All my kids were born in the UK but grew up in France. We still contribute to both economies. Of course I am going to look after my families self interests first and if that means two passports why wouldn't I take that option? It gives us choices in the event of a Brexit. If that is selfish then I guess I must be. It seems a lot of people on both sides of the channel are considering their options.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...igrants-fear-brexit-european-union-referendum


As far as what I think is right for Britain, going into the future, then a Brexit is my gut instinct and I will vote for what I think is right for the UK as a country.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is rubbish. I have mentioned workers and consumer rights many many times. Whether you choose to listen or not is a different matter. I have previously mentioned working hours and T&Cs, the EU taking on the mobile phone companies who were acting as a Cartel and ripping us off, airlines who were refusing to compensate for delays, the EU funds research into areas which business will not touch like epilepsy in children, they stipulate minimum requirements for passengers on trains. Small businesses and dealing in Europe is made piss easy Etc etc. They now seem to be looking at Google and the cosy arrangement they have with the HMRC and George Osborne. These are all examples where individual governments have totally failed the public because of a lack of will and/or ability to make any impact. I could go on. It ain't always perfect but for striking a balance between commerce and Joe Public it's a darn sight better than anything else. .

a comedy list of "benefits". mobile phones have got to the position following a couple of decades of inaction from the european nations waiting on the EU to "do something", likewise airlines. UK government funds billions of charity based research in a range of medical problems (until they get told off for state aid by the EU...). small businesses are those usually most negatively impacted by the EU, for most of them have no dealings there, and the red tape for those that do is still present, while competing with larger companies across EU (good for consumer, not so good for small business). Multinationals like Google get away with their current tax arrangements precisely because of the EU, not in spite of it, using the freedom of movement of capital to maximum effect basing their operations in the lowest taxed country.

honestly, there is nothing that the EU offers that could not be done more efficiently without it, though straight forward multi-lateral cooperation and international stands bodies, as is often the case already. its a money pit to bring together a single political union.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

a comedy list of "benefits". mobile phones have got to the position following a couple of decades of inaction from the european nations waiting on the EU to "do something", likewise airlines. UK government funds billions of charity based research in a range of medical problems (until they get told off for state aid by the EU...). small businesses are those usually most negatively impacted by the EU, for most of them have no dealings there, and the red tape for those that do is still present, while competing with larger companies across EU (good for consumer, not so good for small business). Multinationals like Google get away with their current tax arrangements precisely because of the EU, not in spite of it, using the freedom of movement of capital to maximum effect basing their operations in the lowest taxed country.

honestly, there is nothing that the EU offers that could not be done more efficiently without it, though straight forward multi-lateral cooperation and international stands bodies, as is often the case already. its a money pit to bring together a single political union.

Now try and back this up with an argument. We can all spout vague stuff like this. Let's start with you explaining the "red tape" for small businesses working across Europe

 

[alfredmizen]

Exactly - so do you want the progressive 'light blue' Tories, or your classic born-to-rule brexit Tory? If we vote out I think the next Tory leader will be rather more conservative than the current top tier.

For me to vote Tory again we would have to go back to the classic born to rule type , at least they were 'one nation' types and im talking about the likes of macmillan and douglas-home here , i couldnt vote for tory or labour at the moment one lot wants to rape the country and sell it off, the other lot wants to give it away.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You have said before the EU needs reforming

so what parts do you feel need reforming?i have asked you this before with no rerply ,perhaps you just missed it

Still no answer then

 

[alfredmizen]

In a word, selfish.

your personal circumstances ALLOW you to be unselfish, were you earning minimum wage and competing for social housing and employment with EU immigrants and your children in a class where 60 % of them speak english as a second language I doubt your voting and attitude would be quite so magnanimous.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Why do you associate left wing with the EU and right wing with out? Very odd. Take a pill

Yes it is rather strange. After thinking about it for a long time, and respecting the views of some (although not all) of those who disagree with me, I can describe myself as pro-EU. But on the political spectrum I'm centre right.

 

[beorhthelm]

Let's start with you explaining the "red tape" for small businesses working across Europe

"red tape" is a euphemism for regulation and often paperwork that obstructs ease of business. an example might be a small business has to pay VAT on all sales of virtual products sold to an EU resident, even though in UK there is a VAT threshold; they have to pay for services to recognise and provide proof of the residency of their customers. at a higher, nationally strategic level, the roll out of broadband across UK where government funding of this uneconomic but worthwhile project is now being called state aid and may be stopped.

for all the benefit of the EU harmonising and centralising regulation and powers, there are costs and consequences - shirley this is recognised and accepted as fact? the question is whether they outweigh each other. the problem is for one company they may benefit, for another they may burden. I'd really like for you, as pro-EU but anti-business to explain a resolution to the problem of taxing multinational corporations, because you have to start from recognising that the EU is the reason it is a problem.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes it is rather strange. After thinking about it for a long time, and respecting the views of some (although not all) of those who disagree with me, I can describe myself as pro-EU. But on the political spectrum I'm centre right.

Completely agree this isn't a left right issue. Until recently the Leader of the Labour party was a Euro sceptic he even voted to leave in the 1975 referendum, no idea what has changed this 'principled' position though.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

your personal circumstances ALLOW you to be unselfish, were you earning minimum wage and competing for social housing and employment with EU immigrants and your children in a class where 60 % of them speak english as a second language I doubt your voting and attitude would be quite so magnanimous.

This with knobs on.

Very generous of you to call someone who voted for Corbyn putting their own ideological fantasies before the good of the Labour party , British democracy, the poor and disenfranchised and the country unselfish though.

 

[cunning fergus]

Now try and back this up with an argument. We can all spout vague stuff like this. Let's start with you explaining the "red tape" for small businesses working across Europe

How about MiFID II that involves both a Directive and a Regulation, remember Directives must be transposed by the democratically member state Governments whereas Regulations go straight on the statute book once passed through the EU Parliament.

These new regulations coupled with the associated technical/implementing standards from the European Securities and Markets Authority (which was set up following the Lisbon Treaty, the one Mandelson said was a "tidying up exercise") runs to over 5000 pages of regulation investment firms need to understand if they want to carry on as an investment firm.

Amongst the changes is a new requirement for Transaction Reporting, this leans on an arrangement the UK has been running since 2007, but now the EU will roll out a similar version EU wide. This changes the info firms need to report, and in the UK firms reported 23 fields, under MiFID they will be required to report upto 81. Much of teh chnage is in personal data, only 13 fields that the UK used to require remain.

This is nothing more than a huge data gathering execise by the EU and will cost the industry millions to implement.

Worse is that the EU will shortly be rolling out the Data Protection REGULATION, which will change the laws on how firms hold personal data. It is a basic tenet of DP law that firms should only collect and maintain personal data when they need it, so at a stoke the EU has created an additional demand for firms to hold data that previosuly they never needed, and they will be fined under MiFID and DPR if they fail to do so appropriately.

That is RED TAPE my son.................now run along and let the adults continue to discuss these important things.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

How about MiFID II that involves both a Directive and a Regulation, remember Directives must be transposed by the democratically member state Governments whereas Regulations go straight on the statute book once passed through the EU Parliament.

These new regulations coupled with the associated technical/implementing standards from the European Securities and Markets Authority (which was set up following the Lisbon Treaty, the one Mandelson said was a "tidying up exercise") runs to over 5000 pages of regulation investment firms need to understand if they want to carry on as an investment firm.

Amongst the changes is a new requirement for Transaction Reporting, this leans on an arrangement the UK has been running since 2007, but now the EU will roll out a similar version EU wide. This changes the info firms need to report, and in the UK firms reported 23 fields, under MiFID they will be required to report upto 81. Much of teh chnage is in personal data, only 13 fields that the UK used to require remain.

This is nothing more than a huge data gathering execise by the EU and will cost the industry millions to implement.

Worse is that the EU will shortly be rolling out the Data Protection REGULATION, which will change the laws on how firms hold personal data. It is a basic tenet of DP law that firms should only collect and maintain personal data when they need it, so at a stoke the EU has created an additional demand for firms to hold data that previosuly they never needed, and they will be fined under MiFID and DPR if they fail to do so appropriately.

That is RED TAPE my son.................now run along and let the adults continue to discuss these important things.

In the UK we have the added problem that we actually follow all these rules, whereas most countries just ignore them and get away with it.

We love following rules once they come in, however stupid they are. so the fewer we have the better.

 

[cunning fergus]

In the UK we have the added problem that we actually follow all these rules, whereas most countries just ignore them and get away with it.

We love following rules once they come in, however stupid they are. so the fewer we have the better.

Absolutely,the reality for BIG business these rules can be accommodated much more easily than small firms can because they can bring all their resources to bare. This means it is not a level playing field and all it will do is kill off diversity in the market, mainly the smaller leaner firms leaving the markets open to the behemoths. As it was designed to do right?

The costs associated with just the 2 bits of legislation (MiFID and DPR) above are eye watering and all that will happen is these costs will be passed on to the consumer, making it much harder for the poor to access financial markets and/or where they have to pass on personal data.

Worse of all this kind of legislation is an attack on hard earned personal liberties, just passed up by our Government to the EU without a by-your-leave. The EU will defend these new laws based on the need to monitor market abuse, however there is sufficient legislation to do that now, for much of the new requirements it is nothing short of wholesale data gathering on the EU citizenry.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said when a Government fears its people it will Govern fairly..................the EU is a Governement which legilslates through an institution without any democratic mandate to the people. Little wonder people think the EU is remote and autocratic.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/?gclid=CKvbhdqc3soCFcO4Gwod0jcAuA

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne.../arplrskfnc/YG-Trackers-Europe-Referendum.pdf

Couple of recent polls.

Very different outcomes.

I personally think there are a huge number of 'don't know' who will decide this.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

your personal circumstances ALLOW you to be unselfish, were you earning minimum wage and competing for social housing and employment with EU immigrants and your children in a class where 60 % of them speak english as a second language I doubt your voting and attitude would be quite so magnanimous.

Possibly. But my reply was to a fellow poster who seems to be in a position of privilege with his nationality and stated quite clearly he would vote out if he got his second passport. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[alfredmizen]

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/?gclid=CKvbhdqc3soCFcO4Gwod0jcAuA

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne.../arplrskfnc/YG-Trackers-Europe-Referendum.pdf

Couple of recent polls.

Very different outcomes.

I personally think there are a huge number of 'don't know' who will decide this.

I'm one of them.

 

[glasfryn]

Completely agree this isn't a left right issue. Until recently the Leader of the Labour party was a Euro sceptic he even voted to leave in the 1975 referendum, no idea what has changed this 'principled' position though.

quite right it certainly is not a left/right issue
up till maybe two years ago I was a very committed European(even warts and all) and right from the start when a tory took us in (I rather liked Edward Heath at the time) I liked the Idea of a whole Europe.
now I cannot wait to get out the realisation that they are a bunch of bumblers and snouts in the trough eating what is our money and wasting it on jollies.
and from someone who is and always has been a committed socialist I now believe they need us more than we need them, so its OUT for me and trade with them and the rest of the commonwealth and the world without them poking their nose in and having to get the OK from some nutjob who is paid far to much to tell us what to do

 

[Deleted member 22389]

My issue with the EU has always been open borders, and I will say to anyone if your concerned about the numbers of people coming here, then you should vote Leave. There will be nothing we can do about it if we Remain, regardless of what Cameron tells us. The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the EU along with Italy. Think about your quality of life and what is happening where we have governments putting less and less in to the services we have all paid for.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I'm one of them.

So am I.

I was always 'IN' ( my Company exports all over Europe, and there were obvious advantages of being IN) I then moved to the fence, (it's now as easy selling to Switzerland as it is to France/Germany etc..) and am probably now swaying to the OUTs as I feel we have given up too much decision making to Europe, and don't have control of our borders.

We are a small Country, and one which is filling up fast. Pressure on schools, hospitals etc.

Turkey's possible/probable entry into the EU would IMO be the straw that broke he camel's back. Have a look at the Countries that they border - Iraq/Iran/Syria amongst others.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

My issue with the EU has always been open borders, and I will say to anyone if your concerned about the numbers of people coming here, then you should vote Leave. There will be nothing we can do about it if we Remain, regardless of what Cameron tells us. The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the EU along with Italy. Think about your quality of life and what is happening where we have governments putting less and less in to the services we have all paid for.

Very true Vote Leave is the only way we have any chance of regaining full control of our borders and slowing the rates of immigration to manageable levels.

There is a myth that if we leave we would still have to sign up to the free movement of people to gain access to the EU marketplace this is scaremongering nonsense.

Canada has recently agreed the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) with the EU.

Removing 99% of customs duties & many other obstacles for business to boost trade, strengthen economic relations and create jobs

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ceta/

This shows it is possible to have a wide ranging trade agreement without the need for free movement of peoples/surrendering border controls. We are also in a much stronger position to negotiate better terms as our economic punch is far greater.