Europe: In or Out

[Simster]

I am undecided, but tend to side with the IN camp. Here are my key thoughts regarding this debate:

1) The EU was MUCH better when it was smaller, made up of broadly similar western European economies. Since then, I don't see how things have really improved for us. I will eventually get round to taking a closer look at Cameron's negotiations, and I am hoping they take us some way back to the way things were. I think they do, but can't be sure.
2) The one absolutely monumental thing we should never lose sight of is that member states haven't gone to war with each other since the EU was formed. Ultimately, closer economic cooperation IS responsible for this, but conditions for entry need to be properly met in order for it to work properly.
3) The people running the IN campaign are doing an absolutely pony job of it. Truly abysmal.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

I support free movement between countries within reason, but we can agree that in terms of movement into the UK, whether we are in the EU or not.

I am less worried about the rights of British citizens going to work abroad in the UK, but in reality I imagine we would agree reasonably free movement for UK workers to go to EU countries anyway.

I can't help but think that the reality is that most of the good things involved in being in the EU we would end up having anyway, whether we are in the EU or not.

If we're out we won't be part of an overblown mess of expense claiming layabouts. That sound good.

IM OUT.

 

[jakarta]

I am undecided, but tend to side with the IN camp. Here are my key thoughts regarding this debate:

2) The one absolutely monumental thing we should never lose sight of is that member states haven't gone to war with each other since the EU was formed.

Blimey, so if we leave the UK skies will darken with EU Bombers?

 

[Soulman]

Cameron’s EU “Deal”
No treaty change
No repatriation of powers
EU law remains supreme
£55m handed over every day
Open borders

 

[BUTTERBALL]

After Cameron's abhorrent capitulation i am definitely in the 'undecided' camp now when i was firmly in the yes. I am starting to wonder if the benefits are outweighed by the concessions. It didn't hurt us not joining the single currency and i don't think as a leading world centre of trade that it would hurt us either if we pulled out. It's the EU itself that would be destabilised if we were to leave.

 

[GT49er]

Cameron’s EU “Deal”
No treaty change
No repatriation of powers
EU law remains supreme
£55m handed over every day
Open borders

Blimey! I had no idea he'd done that well!

 

[Simster]

Blimey, so if we leave the UK skies will darken with EU Bombers?

You cheapen the point, but historically we (all the western powers) have been at each others throats every other decade!

 

[Soulman]

After Cameron's abhorrent capitulation i am definitely in the 'undecided' camp now when i was firmly in the yes. I am starting to wonder if the benefits are outweighed by the concessions. It didn't hurt us not joining the single currency and i don't think as a leading world centre of trade that it would hurt us either if we pulled out. It's the EU itself that would be destabilised if we were to leave.

There is a chance that other EU countries will consider leaving if we do.

 

[5ways]

After Cameron's abhorrent capitulation i am definitely in the 'undecided' camp now when i was firmly in the yes. I am starting to wonder if the benefits are outweighed by the concessions. It didn't hurt us not joining the single currency and i don't think as a leading world centre of trade that it would hurt us either if we pulled out. It's the EU itself that would be destabilised if we were to leave.

The stability of one is essential to the stability of the other. The EU is our largest trading partner so if the EU did fall apart we would not be insulated and would also get pulled into a recession. This is not a pro or anti point just the reality of the global economy.

 

[Soulman]

The stability of one is essential to the stability of the other. The EU is our largest trading partner so if the EU did fall apart we would not be insulated and would also get pulled into a recession. This is not a pro or anti point just the reality of the global economy.

So do you think we should stay in to prop up the EU, and if other EU countries struggle like Greece and a couple of others then surely we will get pulled into a trading recession whilst still stumping up billions to try and keep the EU ideal afloat.

 

[melias shoes]

After Cameron's abhorrent capitulation i am definitely in the 'undecided' camp now when i was firmly in the yes. I am starting to wonder if the benefits are outweighed by the concessions. It didn't hurt us not joining the single currency and i don't think as a leading world centre of trade that it would hurt us either if we pulled out. It's the EU itself that would be destabilised if we were to leave.

Exactly the EU has got everything to lose.

 

[5ways]

So do you think we should stay in to prop up the EU, and if other EU countries struggle like Greece and a couple of others then surely we will get pulled into a trading recession whilst still stumping up billions to try and keep the EU ideal afloat.

Well, of course, we don't contribute to the EU bailout funds (although we are members of the IMF) but we do prop-up each other. Greece, I think, will eventually be forced out and the eurozone will hopefully be able to get its house in order. We should stay because as DC has put it we want to "hardwire competitiveness into Europe" - we can tip the scales towards sound 'northern' economic policy.

 

[Soulman]

Well, of course, we don't contribute to the EU bailout funds (although we are members of the IMF) but we do prop-up each other. Greece, I think, will eventually be forced out and the eurozone will hopefully be able to get its house in order. We should stay because as DC has put it we want to "hardwire competitiveness into Europe" - we can tip the scales towards sound 'northern' economic policy.

So why has it taken so long to achieve hard wire competitiveness, only now after it is getting close to a vote is Dave trying to (and not succeeding really) to get better deals.

 

[melias shoes]

The EU is a club that has proved its worth to this country, long may it continue

No it hasn't and I hope we are out asap.

 

[melias shoes]

Its a club of friends for friends

It's a club of takers. Especially Britains cash.

 

[nicko31]

Leaving is a massive risk, not to mention the break up of the Union with Little England left somewhere mid-Atlantic.

 

[melias shoes]

And all the OUT camp seem to say is the UK can go it alone and negotiate its own agreements and be like Norway and Switzerland??

The way I see it is the EU would be worse off if we left. For that reason they should be on their knees begging us to stay and keep the coffers topped up. That is far from the case through isn't it.

 

[nicko31]

It's a club of takers. Especially Britains cash.

2% of the budget. If we left that 2% would still need to be spent dealing with loads of bureaucracy undoing all the EU things that are already in place and functioning.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How about MiFID II that involves both a Directive and a Regulation, remember Directives must be transposed by the democratically member state Governments whereas Regulations go straight on the statute book once passed through the EU Parliament.

These new regulations coupled with the associated technical/implementing standards from the European Securities and Markets Authority (which was set up following the Lisbon Treaty, the one Mandelson said was a "tidying up exercise") runs to over 5000 pages of regulation investment firms need to understand if they want to carry on as an investment firm.

Amongst the changes is a new requirement for Transaction Reporting, this leans on an arrangement the UK has been running since 2007, but now the EU will roll out a similar version EU wide. This changes the info firms need to report, and in the UK firms reported 23 fields, under MiFID they will be required to report upto 81. Much of teh chnage is in personal data, only 13 fields that the UK used to require remain.

This is nothing more than a huge data gathering execise by the EU and will cost the industry millions to implement.

Worse is that the EU will shortly be rolling out the Data Protection REGULATION, which will change the laws on how firms hold personal data. It is a basic tenet of DP law that firms should only collect and maintain personal data when they need it, so at a stoke the EU has created an additional demand for firms to hold data that previosuly they never needed, and they will be fined under MiFID and DPR if they fail to do so appropriately.

That is RED TAPE my son.................now run along and let the adults continue to discuss these important things.

This could be something, or most likely absolutely nothing. Its 2016, and data collection can be, and generally is, incredibly simple. Even assuming the most analogue of data capture systems I'm struggling to under stand where the burden is. And, if it is a resource hit, it will most likely just be a one off hit (we now live in the computer age). Go on, why don't you just admit you found this on the Internet and don't really know what you're talking about*? And is this really the best you can find?

* I still chuckle at your pharmacoeconomics discussion; a topic you clearly were learning as you went along via Google.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Leaving is a massive risk, not to mention the break up of the Union with Little England left somewhere mid-Atlantic.

UKIP don't like you mentioning the breakup of the UK. Scaremongering apparently. I would have thought they'd be very happy to cut lose the foreigners