Europe: In or Out

[Iggle Piggle]

My view as it stands is that if we vote no, Europe will try to keep us in and we will surely be offered a better deal to be involved than we currently have. At the very least a no vote, gives us a better hand to play with. Put it this way, if we vote to leave, Does anyone really think it will happen? Unless it's a landslide, I can't see it. It will just be another referendum until we get to the 'right' answer.

 

[Hamilton]

My view as it stands is that if we vote no, Europe will try to keep us in and we will surely be offered a better deal to be involved than we currently have. At the very least a no vote, gives us a better hand to play with. Put it this way, if we vote to leave, Does anyone really think it will happen? Unless it's a landslide, I can't see it. It will just be another referendum until we get to the 'right' answer.

That's a very high risk strategy.

If we vote to leave then we will leave. That would be a long term disaster for the UK. At present we are a major player on the world stage and our influence in the EU helps with that. Leaving would leave England and Wales greatly weakened. The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

People bang on about bad big business, but without big business we don't have an economy. A plethora of SME's does not make a healthy economy.

With the U.K. out of the picture I can see Paris and Frankfurt rubbing their hands with glee as they go after City business as well.

In for me. I like the certainty.

And voting out isn't going to raise wages and close the gap in earnings between rich and poor. That could be done now if we could be bothered.

 

[alfredmizen]

That's a very high risk strategy.

If we vote to leave then we will leave. That would be a long term disaster for the UK. At present we are a major player on the world stage and our influence in the EU helps with that. Leaving would leave England and Wales greatly weakened. The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

People bang on about bad big business, but without big business we don't have an economy. A plethora of SME's does not make a healthy economy.

With the U.K. out of the picture I can see Paris and Frankfurt rubbing their hands with glee as they go after City business as well.

In for me. I like the certainty.

And voting out isn't going to raise wages and close the gap in earnings between rich and poor. That could be done now if we could be bothered.

I don't think the scots would vote to leave , there are rumblings of discontent that they were misled over the SNP fiscal plans and coupled with the oil price through the floor I think that they would vote to stay within the UK and by a much wider margin this time, I'd also be interested how you think that Frankfurt and Paris would steal business away from the city.

 

[Hamilton]

I don't think the scots would vote to leave , there are rumblings of discontent that they were misled over the SNP fiscal plans and coupled with the oil price through the floor I think that they would vote to stay within the UK and by a much wider margin this time.

I'm afraid that the same irrational arguments that are driving people to think of voting out of the EU are the same ones that would drive the Scots to vote out of the U.K.

They are also dissatisfied with the powers promised them as part of a deal to stay in the UK. Another Cameron fudge. In fact, it was all party rashness.

This debate is all about emotions rather than rational thought.

 

[alfredmizen]

I'm afraid that the same irrational arguments that are driving people to think of voting out of the EU are the same ones that would drive the Scots to vote out of the U.K.

They are also dissatisfied with the powers promised them as part of a deal to stay in the UK. Another Cameron fudge. In fact, it was all party rashness.

This debate is all about emotions rather than rational thought.

I agree with you to a certain extent about the debate being about emotion, certainly on the scots side , but my gut tells me that they would vote to stay again , the SNP economic case is basically shot with the oil price where it is , as for th EU in out debate , again to a certain extent I'll agree with you, but I think there are a huge amount of don't knows , myself included who are yet to be swayed either way, though I have to admit that Cameron's intelligence insulting "deal" has irritated me to the point of moving me further to the "out" camp.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I agree with you to a certain extent about the debate being about emotion, certainly on the scots side , but my gut tells me that they would vote to stay again , the SNP economic case is basically shot with the oil price where it is , as for th EU in out debate , again to a certain extent I'll agree with you, but I think there are a huge amount of don't knows , myself included who are yet to be swayed either way, though I have to admit that Cameron's intelligence insulting "deal" has irritated me to the point of moving me further to the "out" camp.

Can you elaborate on why you're undecided? I'm genuinely curious/nosey. What could sway it one way or the other for you? I'm guessing immigration plays a part but you must have some acceptance/resignation that this is inevitable at some level if you're considering "in"

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

.

If the Scots, having won Independence, wanted to join the EU, they would have to take the Euro - not sure how appealing that would be?

 

[alfredmizen]

Can you elaborate on why you're undecided? I'm genuinely curious/nosey. What could sway it one way or the other for you? I'm guessing immigration plays a part but you must have some acceptance/resignation that this is inevitable at some level if you're considering "in"

Undecided because of the economic case , neither side has presented a clear, concise, detailed argument as to the benefits of staying or going , it's been bluster and scaremongering from both sides , the immigration argument isn't really at the forefront of my thinking believe it or not , though I think it's been terrible for the unskilled and to a certain extent skilled workforce in this country , the vast majority of EU immigrants share a broadly similar culture and way of life to us , those from sub Saharan Africa, and South Asia, dont.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

That's a very high risk strategy.

If we vote to leave then we will leave. That would be a long term disaster for the UK. At present we are a major player on the world stage and our influence in the EU helps with that. Leaving would leave England and Wales greatly weakened. The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

People bang on about bad big business, but without big business we don't have an economy. A plethora of SME's does not make a healthy economy.

I work for a big bad business. Most things we buy come from Malaysia or China. Most of the business we do is UK based but abroad we typically deal with the East and States. Europe is a minor part of what we do. I drink with a guy who runs his own export business - To Australia. I appreciate we do do business with Europe but in general terms everyone I speak to does it elsewhere. I struggle to see what we would lose out on although a detailed look at the numbers would change my mind if that's what they said - The only business I do with Europe is caning a bottle of Rioja on any given evening.

I'd also bet a month's wages that a no vote would start a protracted debate with the EU, another referendum and would result in anything but a swift exit. There's too much riding on it for that to happen.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...om-remain-a-member-of-the-eu-or-leave-the-eu/

Latest 'Poll of Polls'

Still 19% undecided

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I fundamentally don't agree with rule by referenda though. We should elect people to lead.

Presumably you didn't agree with the local referendum about the Amex which gave local politicians the public backing to approve it ?

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Undecided because of the economic case , neither side has presented a clear, concise, detailed argument as to the benefits of staying or going , it's been bluster and scaremongering from both sides , the immigration argument isn't really at the forefront of my thinking believe it or not , though I think it's been terrible for the unskilled and to a certain extent skilled workforce in this country , the vast majority of EU immigrants share a broadly similar culture and way of life to us , those from sub Saharan Africa, and South Asia, dont.

And those from Turkey?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Presumably you didn't agree with the local referendum about the Amex which gave local politicians the public backing to approve it ?

Not really. No.

 

[alfredmizen]

And those from Turkey?

The thought terrifies me.

 

[beorhthelm]

That's a very high risk strategy.

If we vote to leave then we will leave. That would be a long term disaster for the UK. At present we are a major player on the world stage and our influence in the EU helps with that. Leaving would leave England and Wales greatly weakened. The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

People bang on about bad big business, but without big business we don't have an economy. A plethora of SME's does not make a healthy economy.

With the U.K. out of the picture I can see Paris and Frankfurt rubbing their hands with glee as they go after City business as well.

In for me. I like the certainty.

And voting out isn't going to raise wages and close the gap in earnings between rich and poor. That could be done now if we could be bothered.

half of this is regurgitation of what would happen if we didnt join the euro: loss of influence, business would leave, Frankfurt would take the City's trade. none of this came to pass. we have global influence from generations of global leadership and being seen, generally, as fair. big business wouldnt leave because we exit the EU, they would exit if leaving the EU meant it materially impacted their business, which is not a given. many of the largest businesses are global and the EU is convenience for them.

on the risk, i see this being flagged by the In crowd, but it pretends there's no risks to staying in. the future for the EU is far from certain, as they drive through more rules, regulation and law in the name of harmonisation, what outcomes might impact us negatively? there is no certainty either way.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Undecided because of the economic case , neither side has presented a clear, concise, detailed argument as to the benefits of staying or going , it's been bluster and scaremongering from both sides , the immigration argument isn't really at the forefront of my thinking believe it or not , though I think it's been terrible for the unskilled and to a certain extent skilled workforce in this country , the vast majority of EU immigrants share a broadly similar culture and way of life to us , those from sub Saharan Africa, and South Asia, dont.

It's the last part of your post where I feel the same, that is where the real danger lies for us. Staying in the EU is certainly not going to help us, you know that.

 

[brighton fella]

True, but I think the environment and thinking is very very different to then. In my mind exiting the EU but still having an soft, almost open border, would be a bit odd...especially as one of the key planks of the out campaign was control of the UK's borders. If they win then surely the'd want the borders ramped up?

hopefully this country finally sees sense and votes to get out of this communist run sh*t hole, the whole thing is a stinking mess and corrupt,.

this is what will happen..britain just about clinches a vote to come out of the EU whilst mrekel and co come up with some last minute stitch up by means of preventing britain a grexit..in exactly the same way as the corrupt bas*ards did to the french and the dutch...... the lisbon treaty,. plus not forgetting the blatant stitch up they sold the irish...

as a result of EU policies you cannot fail to notice the hostility across europe. and i.reckon it is only a matter of time before something devastating happens. how many more reasons does a country need to free itself from communist dictatorship who has no boundaries at all when misery and suffering are concerned., regardless of it's consequences these lot of bas*ards will continue the same course whilst pressing their own self destruct button at the very same time...the crazy idiots know no other way.

democracy in a ever ending uniondo me a favour. .

 

[alfredmizen]

hopefully this country finally sees sense and votes to get out of this communist run sh*t hole, the whole thing is a stinking mess and corrupt,.

this is what will happen..britain just about clinches a vote to come out of the EU whilst mrekel and co come up with some last minute stitch up by means of preventing britain a grexit..in exactly the same way as the corrupt bas*ards did to the french and the dutch...... the lisbon treaty,. plus not forgetting the blatant stitch up they sold the irish...

as a result of EU policies you cannot fail to notice the hostility across europe. and i.reckon it is only a matter of time before something devastating happens. how many more reasons does a country need to free itself from communist dictatorship who has no boundaries at all when misery and suffering are concerned., regardless of it's consequences these lot of bas*ards will continue the same course whilst pressing their own self destruct button at the very same time...the crazy idiots know no other way.

democracy in a ever ending uniondo me a favour. .

long time no see !!

 

[cunning fergus]

That's a very high risk strategy.

If we vote to leave then we will leave. That would be a long term disaster for the UK. At present we are a major player on the world stage and our influence in the EU helps with that. Leaving would leave England and Wales greatly weakened. The Scots would get their independence within a few years and apply for EU membership.

People bang on about bad big business, but without big business we don't have an economy. A plethora of SME's does not make a healthy economy.

With the U.K. out of the picture I can see Paris and Frankfurt rubbing their hands with glee as they go after City business as well.

In for me. I like the certainty.

And voting out isn't going to raise wages and close the gap in earnings between rich and poor. That could be done now if we could be bothered.

Where is the certainty?

Is it certain that the electorates in the eurozone countries will support a de facto polictical/economic union amongst themselves and remove what little soveriengty they have left in order to resolve the euro crisis?
Is it certain that Germany will agree to fiscal transfers to poorer EZ countries, as a consequence of the above?
Is it certain that if the EZ countries form a EZ bloc that they wont just act in their own interests?
Is it certain that there will be no negative reaction by EU electorates to the accession of the likes of Albania, Modova, Serbia, Turkey or Ukraine in the fu?

In is more uncertain, we will have lost control.

 

[Hamilton]

I work for a big bad business. Most things we buy come from Malaysia or China. Most of the business we do is UK based but abroad we typically deal with the East and States. Europe is a minor part of what we do. I drink with a guy who runs his own export business - To Australia. I appreciate we do do business with Europe but in general terms everyone I speak to does it elsewhere. I struggle to see what we would lose out on although a detailed look at the numbers would change my mind if that's what they said - The only business I do with Europe is caning a bottle of Rioja on any given evening.

I'd also bet a month's wages that a no vote would start a protracted debate with the EU, another referendum and would result in anything but a swift exit. There's too much riding on it for that to happen.

Don't see it myself.

For every big bad business doing deal with China, there's big bad businesses doing deals in Europe.

Also remember the power of the Bloc in doing business with China. You have that to your advantage at present. Piggy backing on Germany's influence. Nice.