Should single faith schools be privately funded?

[Buzzer]

and thats why it is broken, there shouldn't be any entrance critieria. (save for proximity or similar practical aspects)

'Sake. The entrance criteria at primary schools is one thing and one thing only - you agree to the school emphasising the Christian faith and underpinning all education with this ethos. It's hardly a frigging bar exam.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Once again we have people trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Faith schools work well as they are and the entrance criteria is fairly low. My 2 sons went to the local CoE school and loved it there. The ethos was very much New Testament, being a good citizen and doing unto others... They also got to sing some lovely hymns, learnt about other religions in a respectful way and came out of it well-adjusted.

Also, they took part in wider community projects associated with the church that they were affiliated to. They got to meet lots of older folk with some great stories to tell and the older folk got to meet the kids and both parties really benefitted from it. Neither non-faith school nearby offered the same opportunities.

They were also in contact with faith schools in developing countries and probably had greater access to understanding what it was like to be a child in those countries than their peers in the nearby non-faith, secular primary schools. Once again neither non-faith school nearby had a similar 'twinning' programme.

There's benefits to both. Let the atheists send their kids to state-funded secular schools and let those who want to send their kids to state-funded faith schools do that.

What about the atheists who want to send their kids to a state-funded faith school because it is right on their doorstep, convenient, and their school of choice? Why is their child's chance of attending that school diminished because they don't attend church, or the church have their own priority criteria about whom they select?

It's simply wrong.

 

[Bold Seagull]

'Sake. The entrance criteria at primary schools is one thing and one thing only - you agree to the school emphasising the Christian faith and underpinning all education with this ethos. It's hardly a frigging bar exam.

You've got the wrong end of the argument here. Faith schools can and do have a selection process by which they can select those children that have attended church services regularly ahead of those that haven't. It is a discrimination based on faith.

Every child, regardless of background should be able to be selected for a state funded school with equal chance as any other. Currently, that is definitely not the case.

 

[Buzzer]

What about the atheists who want to send their kids to a state-funded faith school because it is right on their doorstep, convenient, and their school of choice? Why is their child's chance of attending that school diminished because they don't attend church, or the church have their own priority criteria about whom they select?

It's simply wrong.

Maybe the faith schools produce better results because of the very fact that they emphasis the moral code throughout. So...if your hypothetical atheists want to enjoy the better education that faith schools provide then you play by their rules. It really is that simple.

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

Maybe the faith schools produce better results because of the very fact that they emphasis the moral code throughout. So...if your hypothetical atheists want to enjoy the better education that faith schools provide then you play by their rules. It really is that simple.

you'd have thought so wouldn't you

 

[beorhthelm]

'Sake. The entrance criteria at primary schools is one thing and one thing only - you agree to the school emphasising the Christian faith and underpinning all education with this ethos. It's hardly a frigging bar exam.

your example might seem fair enough, but with the precedent set other schools can set higher criteria.

So...if your hypothetical atheists want to enjoy the better education that faith schools provide then you play by their rules. It really is that simple.

which is fine, so they shouldnt have state funding unless open to all. which is the heart of this discussion.

i can see that the reason faith schools are better is because they have more resources (church funds in addition to state funds) and if we're honest they tend to be teaching pupils who's parents care more about their education (since they've oftne proactivly put them into that school), so that encourages better outcomes. so its more complicated. but at the heart of the matter of funding, state funding should mean open to everyone equally as it does with every other tax payer funded service.

 

[Gazwag]

Maybe the faith schools produce better results because of the very fact that they emphasis the moral code throughout.

Its not though, its because they can pick and choose which children they take. Brighter children=better results

 

[Buzzer]

I can assure you that round our way St Martins CoE tends to take in more kids from poorer areas than Elm Grove Primary and have nothing like the resources available to Elm Grove too. Elm Grove tends to take from Hanover/Elm Grove/Hartington Road where families are far more middle class than the likes of the Bevendean/Hollingdean/Coldean/Whitehawk kids that make up a very big proportion of St Martins.

 

[daveinprague]

Why should any school be denied government funding...education is one of the most important things the govt should spend money on...what religion is behind the school is pretty irrellevent..
Why somebody should say if not christian schools no ..is a bit baffling...why?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Maybe the faith schools produce better results because of the very fact that they emphasis the moral code throughout. So...if your hypothetical atheists want to enjoy the better education that faith schools provide then you play by their rules. It really is that simple.

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest faith schools 'produce' better results. It is a fact that through their selection criteria they have fewer pupils on free school meals than the average, and lower numbers of pupils with special educational needs. Also, where faith schools do have a selection criteria to match non-faith schools, there is no difference in results.

All schools have a moral code. You do not have to be religious to know right from wrong. Completely disingenuous, and frankly pretty arrogant to suggest otherwise.

The proposal to scrap selection criteria for faith schools is still out for consultation I believe, it really is only a matter of time before admissions are completely equal between all state funded schools. Exactly as it should be.

 

[Buzzer]

All schools have a moral code. You do not have to be religious to know right from wrong. Completely disingenuous, and frankly pretty arrogant to suggest otherwise..

You're right, we all know right from wrong but as I said quite clearly - The Christian ethos is quite overtly reinforced at every opportunity, it's the school's raison d'etre. Something that doesn't happen in secular schools. It's my belief that this constant reinforcement, used as a carrot and stick, is the difference.

You only have to see the Children's parade each year in Brighton and who has the flashiest displays with the brightest, biggest floats to see that this idea that CoE schools are all elitist is frankly, nonsense.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You're right, we all know right from wrong but as I said quite clearly - The Christian ethos is quite overtly reinforced at every opportunity, it's the school's raison d'etre. Something that doesn't happen in secular schools. It's my belief that this constant reinforcement, used as a carrot and stick, is the difference.

You only have to see the Children's parade each year in Brighton and who has the flashiest displays with the brightest, biggest floats to see that this idea that CoE schools are all elitist is frankly, nonsense.

You realise I'm not arguing against faith schools. My only point in this thread has been about admission criteria. If you are funded by the state, you give every child from the state equal chance to attend the school. It is surely the Christian thing to do.

You've also described indoctrination very succinctly.

 

[The Large One]

Its not though, its because they can pick and choose which children they take. Brighter children=better results

No. State schools are not allowed to have higher-achieving academic children as one of the admissions policy criteria.

 

[Bold Seagull]

No. State schools are not allowed to have higher-achieving academic children as one of the admissions policy criteria.

But it is a fact that faith schools have a lower percentage of free school meal kids, and a lower percentage of kids with special educational needs. This consistently skews the misplaced conception that faith schools are better educational establishments simply based on results. It is also a fact that if you take only faith schools that apply no selection criteria to their admissions, their results are the same as non-faith schools.

 

[Buzzer]

You've also described indoctrination very succinctly.

And I make no apologies for that. If I send my kids to a CoE school there's every likelihood they will be indoctrinated into the Christian faith.

I take your point on admission criteria but, and apologies for harking back to St Martins - it does actually give families from poorer areas the opportunity to send their kids to what they would consider a better school. I doubt that Elm Grove has too many children from the places where my childrens' schoolfriends live. If you do away with the faith element then those children would not get any chance whatsoever to go anywhere but their local school.

 

[The Large One]

But it is a fact that faith schools have a lower percentage of free school meal kids, and a lower percentage of kids with special educational needs. This consistently skews the misplaced conception that faith schools are better educational establishments simply based on results. It is also a fact that if you take only faith schools that apply no selection criteria to their admissions, their results are the same as non-faith schools.

Is is a fact? Or a perception?

Free school meals are a statement of relative wealth, rather than academic achievement, although I do acknowledge that the former is often linked with the (lack of) the latter.

Basing an educational establishment purely on results has little value, except maybe to parents who only wish for their children to attain high-achieving results.

 

[piersa]

Religious based school entry is a farce and entirely iniquitous. Any religious school basing entry on that basis should be made to fund themselves. Especially as god does not exist.

 

[piersa]

Because there are other local children from families that also pay taxes, who can't get in because they don't believe in the right god. Is it right for something the state pays for to discriminate against those people?

Mr biggums and nwgull just made it too easy for you.

 

[Bold Seagull]

And I make no apologies for that. If I send my kids to a CoE school there's every likelihood they will be indoctrinated into the Christian faith.

I take your point on admission criteria but, and apologies for harking back to St Martins - it does actually give families from poorer areas the opportunity to send their kids to what they would consider a better school. I doubt that Elm Grove has too many children from the places where my childrens' schoolfriends live. If you do away with the faith element then those children would not get any chance whatsoever to go anywhere but their local school.

Either that or they'll rebel massively against it, but that is probably another thread.

I thought somewhere along the line we weren't actually in disagreement. Admissions is the bugbear for me. I do not believe a state school should have the right to distinguish between pupils other than the through the democratic policies as laid out by the local authority.

 

[Buzzer]

Either that or they'll rebel massively against it, but that is probably another thread.

I thought somewhere along the line we weren't actually in disagreement. Admissions is the bugbear for me. I do not believe a state school should have the right to distinguish between pupils other than the through the democratic policies as laid out by the local authority.

Agreed on all counts. To me, the only criteria for entrance to a faith school should be that the parents accept that the faith is part of the school and their children will take an active part in this.