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[Football] North Macedonia v England



Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,427
hassocks
It's job done though. Topped the group that included the European Champions, beat them home and away, and secured enough points to join the top band of seeds in the draw.

Can't complain. All tailed off a bit when things didn't matter. Italy were held in Macedonia.
And what will we do differently to the last 3 tournaments? What lessons do you think he's taken?

I'm guessing we will lose in the same way

Italy are a very poor side btw
 




Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
66,218
Withdean area
And what will we do differently to the last 3 tournaments? What lessons do you think he's taken?

I'm guessing we will lose in the same way

Italy are a very poor side btw

He may luck out with Bellingham making the difference.

But needs to be less stubbornly loyal …. Maguire, Hendo (good servant, time now up), Phillips, and braver.
 






Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,329
tokyo
But that's SO the point. Top teams never let up, it's why we've won f*ck all for 57 years while the likes of Portugal (10 wins from 10) and France (7 wins from 7) DO win stuff.


England qualifying record for Euro 2016:

P:10 W:10 D:0 L:0 F:31 A:3 GD:28 Pts:30

Remember 2016? That was the year we didn't let up and won the Euros!

Oh, right, yeah. We stunk the actual tournament out and went home after getting beaten by Iceland in the second round. Presumably that was Southgate's fault as well.

We NEVER win tournaments so why use that as a stick to beat Southgate? By all means moan about the style of football if you don't like it but you can't moan about results because Southgates compare favourably to every single England manager bar Alf Ramsey's.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,927
The Fatherland
I'd put money on us lining up in the first game with Henderson, Rashford and TAA starting.

The bloke hates attacking flair, if it wasn't for Kane/Saka bailing him out in past couple of years he would be long gone

He's had issues with playing Maddison/Bellingham/Grealish/Foden etc- sometimes they didn't even make the squad.

He's playing league 2 tactics with PL players
Don’t forget Slabhead
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,927
The Fatherland
England qualifying record for Euro 2016:

P:10 W:10 D:0 L:0 F:31 A:3 GD:28 Pts:30

Remember 2016? That was the year we didn't let up and won the Euros!

Oh, right, yeah. We stunk the actual tournament out and went home after getting beaten by Iceland in the second round. Presumably that was Southgate's fault as well.

We NEVER win tournaments so why use that as a stick to beat Southgate? By all means moan about the style of football if you don't like it but you can't moan about results because Southgates compare favourably to every single England manager bar Alf Ramsey's.
Fair point about Southgate.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,478
Surrey
England qualifying record for Euro 2016:

P:10 W:10 D:0 L:0 F:31 A:3 GD:28 Pts:30

Remember 2016? That was the year we didn't let up and won the Euros!

Oh, right, yeah. We stunk the actual tournament out and went home after getting beaten by Iceland in the second round. Presumably that was Southgate's fault as well.

We NEVER win tournaments so why use that as a stick to beat Southgate? By all means moan about the style of football if you don't like it but you can't moan about results because Southgates compare favourably to every single England manager bar Alf Ramsey's.
It's interesting. I find Southgate infuriating but despite his loyalty to players who shouldn't be near the squad, he delivers in every qualifying tournament.
I don't watch England in qualifying anymore. I don't have time or interest in doing so. I will watch all games in the big tournaments though, and strangely it isn't his selections that let us down in those - it's the fact that he is always outdone tactically at the highest level.

Tldr; my advice is don't watch or care who he picks in qualifying. Save your annoyance for the semi or final when he gets us there.
 




Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,329
tokyo
It's interesting. I find Southgate infuriating but despite his loyalty to players who shouldn't be near the squad, he delivers in every qualifying tournament.
I don't watch England in qualifying anymore. I don't have time or interest in doing so. I will watch all games in the big tournaments though, and strangely it isn't his selections that let us down in those - it's the fact that he is always outdone tactically at the highest level.

Tldr; my advice is don't watch or care who he picks in qualifying. Save your annoyance for the semi or final when he gets us there.
This is pretty much where I'm at. I don't understand all of his team/squad selections and I don't think he's great tactically but he has delivered what constitutes success for England. He'll fall short of actual big boy success and then everyone should be free to debate where he went wrong/what he could have done differently.
 


Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,103
Mid Sussex
This is pretty much where I'm at. I don't understand all of his team/squad selections and I don't think he's great tactically but he has delivered what constitutes success for England. He'll fall short of actual big boy success and then everyone should be free to debate where he went wrong/what he could have done differently.
world football has been in the doldrums for the last two tournaments. Italy, Holland, Germany, Brazil to name a few are all complete dogshit, we on the other hand have some of the most exciting players in the world coming through and the time ripe for a trophy, so Southgate picks donkeys. It’s always going to end in failure when it comes to any team that’s remotely tactically astute. We should have taken Italy to the cleaners but tactically Southgate got turned over. So in summary, he picks his mates/donkeys and tactically he’s crap but he is a nice guy……
 






Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,427
hassocks
England qualifying record for Euro 2016:

P:10 W:10 D:0 L:0 F:31 A:3 GD:28 Pts:30

Remember 2016? That was the year we didn't let up and won the Euros!

Oh, right, yeah. We stunk the actual tournament out and went home after getting beaten by Iceland in the second round. Presumably that was Southgate's fault as well.

We NEVER win tournaments so why use that as a stick to beat Southgate? By all means moan about the style of football if you don't like it but you can't moan about results because Southgates compare favourably to every single England manager bar Alf Ramsey's.
We've never had such a good set of attacking players that work together and are grounded.

Nor have we had such lucky draws, or a tournament set up to benefit us so much.
 


Uncle Spielberg

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2003
42,993
Lancing
Lost the 3 big games we should have won due to Southgate wasting the best talent we have had for years. Croatia. Italy. France. Nothing leaned. Southgate should have gone after the World Cup
 






Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,957
England qualifying record for Euro 2016:

P:10 W:10 D:0 L:0 F:31 A:3 GD:28 Pts:30

Remember 2016? That was the year we didn't let up and won the Euros!

Oh, right, yeah. We stunk the actual tournament out and went home after getting beaten by Iceland in the second round. Presumably that was Southgate's fault as well.

We NEVER win tournaments so why use that as a stick to beat Southgate? By all means moan about the style of football if you don't like it but you can't moan about results because Southgates compare favourably to every single England manager bar Alf Ramsey's.
Not letting up includes the manager. You mention 2016 - Roy Hodgson's era. Do you think Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp or Robert De Zerbi would have gone on a boat cruise down the Seine at the same time as Iceland were playing Austria, just days ahead of our crucial decisive fixture with Iceland?

Southgate is - ultimately - a weak manager - like Hodgson - because he has a fixation about "the group", loyalty to "his" players , a thing about improving and being on a journey. He focuses too much on how he perceives these players fit into this group, and not enough on the tactical side as to how to maximise performance from the talent he has available to him.

Like Hodgson was useless at Liverpool but decent at Palace and Fulham, Southgate would be a great manager of a lesser nation with a smaller group of players to work with, where tactics would be dictated by the natural skill and physical attributes of the few players of international class available to him. However, with England you can pick from a huge pool of players and play whatever tactics you like. This is too much for Southgate's brain.
 


Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
NSC Patron
Apr 5, 2014
24,705
Not letting up includes the manager. You mention 2016 - Roy Hodgson's era. Do you think Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp or Robert De Zerbi would have gone on a boat cruise down the Seine at the same time as Iceland were playing Austria, just days ahead of our crucial decisive fixture with Iceland?

Southgate is - ultimately - a weak manager - like Hodgson - because he has a fixation about "the group", loyalty to "his" players , a thing about improving and being on a journey. He focuses too much on how he perceives these players fit into this group, and not enough on the tactical side as to how to maximise performance from the talent he has available to him.

Like Hodgson was useless at Liverpool but decent at Palace and Fulham, Southgate would be a great manager of a lesser nation with a smaller group of players to work with, where tactics would be dictated by the natural skill and physical attributes of the few players of international class available to him. However, with England you can pick from a huge pool of players and play whatever tactics you like. This is too much for Southgate's brain.
Which ultimately works in international management.

I've often tried to point out that more than half the battle is having a manager who is liked by the players. I don't think we have ever had one quite like Southgate in that respect. They are happy to play for him.

If you look at successful nation teams you will often find a manager who has never really pulled up and many daisys at club level.

The players don't have time to spend on tactics in the way they do at their clubs. That's why I'm not sure RDZ or Potter would cut it at international level.

England turned up when it mattered in the latest group- and I'd hardly say Italy and Ukraine is an easy ride in a qualifier.
 


Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,329
tokyo
Not letting up includes the manager. You mention 2016 - Roy Hodgson's era. Do you think Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp or Robert De Zerbi would have gone on a boat cruise down the Seine at the same time as Iceland were playing Austria, just days ahead of our crucial decisive fixture with Iceland?

Southgate is - ultimately - a weak manager - like Hodgson - because he has a fixation about "the group", loyalty to "his" players , a thing about improving and being on a journey. He focuses too much on how he perceives these players fit into this group, and not enough on the tactical side as to how to maximise performance from the talent he has available to him.

Like Hodgson was useless at Liverpool but decent at Palace and Fulham, Southgate would be a great manager of a lesser nation with a smaller group of players to work with, where tactics would be dictated by the natural skill and physical attributes of the few players of international class available to him. However, with England you can pick from a huge pool of players and play whatever tactics you like. This is too much for Southgate's brain.

So he's no different to previous managers? Previous managers who have had a bigger pool of players to choose from. In that case criticise him for tactical inability but not his results.

world football has been in the doldrums for the last two tournaments. Italy, Holland, Germany, Brazil to name a few are all complete dogshit, we on the other hand have some of the most exciting players in the world coming through and the time ripe for a trophy, so Southgate picks donkeys. It’s always going to end in failure when it comes to any team that’s remotely tactically astute. We should have taken Italy to the cleaners but tactically Southgate got turned over. So in summary, he picks his mates/donkeys and tactically he’s crap but he is a nice guy……
Same as it ever was then. Hence the tired refrain of England will go out to the first half decent team they face.

I don't dispute, and never have, the claim that Southgate isn't tactically very good or that he shouldn't be criticised. I merely point out, every time people churn out the same old shit about him, that he cannot be criticised for his results seeing as they are better than any England manager other than Alf Ramsey's.
We've never had such a good set of attacking players that work together and are grounded.

Nor have we had such lucky draws, or a tournament set up to benefit us so much.
Yes. We've never had good players before and we've never had easy draws. Of course they're only easy until we lose then we lose to the first half decent team we've faced. Although if we beat said team it's because said team is shit.

The fact remains that he is our second most successful manager in our history. Shit as he may be that is fact and if he is as shit as most people think that is a more damning indictment of all previous managers than it is of him.
 


Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,103
Mid Sussex
So he's no different to previous managers? Previous managers who have had a bigger pool of players to choose from. In that case criticise him for tactical inability but not his results.


Same as it ever was then. Hence the tired refrain of England will go out to the first half decent team they face.

I don't dispute, and never have, the claim that Southgate isn't tactically very good or that he shouldn't be criticised. I merely point out, every time people churn out the same old shit about him, that he cannot be criticised for his results seeing as they are better than any England manager other than Alf Ramsey's.

Yes. We've never had good players before and we've never had easy draws. Of course they're only easy until we lose then we lose to the first half decent team we've faced. Although if we beat said team it's because said team is shit.

The fact remains that he is our second most successful manager in our history. Shit as he may be that is fact and if he is as shit as most people think that is a more damning indictment of all previous managers than it is of him.
So basically you agree that we won’t win anything with Southgate in charge and are happy with that. TBF to Southgate he is merely the continuation of some truly shocking appointments by the FA, the only difference being is that he is a nice guy.
 




SK1NT

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2003
8,758
Thames Ditton
He seems like a decent guy but my worry is he is going to waste probably the best crop of players we have ever had... at a time where international football isn't as strong as previous decades.

Yes he has done well... World Cup Semi, Euro final but i think a trained chimp in a waistcoat could have done that with our current players.
 


Garry Nelson's Left Foot

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
13,329
tokyo
So basically you agree that we won’t win anything with Southgate in charge and are happy with that. TBF to Southgate he is merely the continuation of some truly shocking appointments by the FA, the only difference being is that he is a nice guy.
No, not quite.

I'm saying that we never win anything so that shouldn't be the stick with which to beat the manager. Especially as he's got closer than anyone else since and before Ramsey has.

I'm interested to know if we were to win the Euros next summer would you change your tune on him? Or say it was down to the players/the luck of the draw?
 


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