[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[nevergoagain]

If you have ILR you are able to apply for UK citizenship, and would then escape your dog catcher net!

Yep, very true, if you become a citizen you can no longer be deported. You'd hope that if they applied for citizenship after committing a crime then it would be denied but anything after citizenship is granted is no longer an immigration concern.

 

[nevergoagain]

Seems like a very convoluted system you have going there. I have to agree with GB here, keep it simple and avoid the complex blanket rule idea.

Of course the case-by-case basis is not to be the baby thrown out with the bath water, assuming it falls within the ECHR.

Out of interest, given this is clearly an issue close to your heart, how many people are currently serving time in the UK that you think should have been deported?

Well there's 10k foreign nationals currently serving time but many many more that have been convicted of a crime and subsequently released or deemed to not warrant custodial sentence. The figures are what has been directed to be produced by Yvette Cooper I believe. By contrast there are 1800 UK citizens in prison abroad.

My view isn't convoluted at all, if you are a foreign national and you commit a serious crime then you should lose your right to remain. There will be context to some I totally agree but that's not for me to decide but one of the judiciary or at final point home secretary. We have a blanket rule now of 1 year in prison being the automatic deportation point but I think that's far too lenient.

 

[BadFish]

Well there's 10k foreign nationals currently serving time but many many more that have been convicted of a crime and subsequently released or deemed to not warrant custodial sentence. The figures are what has been directed to be produced by Yvette Cooper I believe. By contrast there are 1800 UK citizens in prison abroad.

My view isn't convoluted at all, if you are a foreign national and you commit a serious crime then you should lose your right to remain. There will be context to some I totally agree but that's not for me to decide but one of the judiciary or at final point home secretary. We have a blanket rule now of 1 year in prison being the automatic deportation point but I think that's far too lenient.

If there is a rule of 1 year, presumably those 10k are serving less than that?

What is the breakdown of those 10K in terms of residency status and crimes committed?

You don't need to answer this, just throw me a link to where you are finding this info.

One thing that interests me, though, is how you have been persuaded to get so het up about this issue? How does it so negatively affect you? 10k isn't a huge number in the great scheme of things.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Seems like a very convoluted system you have going there. I have to agree with GB here, keep it simple and avoid the complex blanket rule idea.

Of course the case-by-case basis is not to be the baby thrown out with the bath water, assuming it falls within the ECHR.

Out of interest, given this is clearly an issue close to your heart, how many people are currently serving time in the UK that you think should have been deported?

This is the problem with politics where 3 word slogans are used, and where situations are far more nuanced.

Some voters will choose Send them back, or Ban all immigration without thinking about desperate people trying to live a normal life.
Get Brexit Done proved to be a real pigs ear, as the main shouter in chief admitted he knew nothing about Northern Ireland or Gibraltar, with the Trade Secretary admitting he didn’t realise trade came through Dover.

Farage has based his whole career on shouting from the sidelines, making promises he knows he won’t keep, whilst taking orders from Putin, and cosying up to Trump.

 

[Bodian]

Sigh.... because we have enough British born idiots/criminals that we are stuck with so why would we want more foreign born ones to add to them ?. It's really not difficult is it. Treat them same legally but if you are a guest in our country and cannot behave then you shouldn't still be here. I note you still haven't answered my question to you.

'Guest'? Funny term to use.

When they become a citizen of the country. I'm assuming you are in Australia so as an Australian you cannot be deported from that country, not sure what the rules say if you are a dual national. If you have indefinite leave to remain then you are still here as a guest of our country and as such can be deported.

Earlier on you said 'foreign-born' - are you now moving away from this by introducing later citizenship? Woouldn't this reduce the numbers that you feel should be deported though.

Given the other clarifications you have also introduced since raising the topic - what sort of additional numbers do you think would be deported as a result of your proposals? I say 'additional' because of course the legislation already allows for deportation of foreign national offenders who have received a year's prison sentence and there is ministerial discretion to deport for lesse offences if it is considered conducive to the public good.

 

[rippleman]

I think the discussion has meandered away from the original point which was a foreign national, released from a period of imprisonment and ordered to be deported after serving that sentence, then claimed asylum. Now that does seem wrong.

If you come to this country with a genuine case to claim asylum but can't behave for long enough for your claim to be considered / processed and commit a crime of such severity that you get banged up, then you should lose any right to claim asylum and should be deported immediately sentence has been served.

Lodge your asylum claim, keep your nose clean whilst it is considered, abide by the decision. How difficult can it be?

 

[nevergoagain]

If there is a rule of 1 year, presumably those 10k are serving less than that?

What is the breakdown of those 10K in terms of residency status and crimes committed?

You don't need to answer this, just throw me a link to where you are finding this info.

One thing that interests me, though, is how you have been persuaded to get so het up about this issue? How does it so negatively affect you? 10k isn't a huge number in the great scheme of things.

We have 10k foreign nationals in prison in the UK I don't think that has any bearing as to how long their sentence is. My understanding is that sentence is served before deportation if over 1 year and general release if less.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/foreign-national-offenders-in-uk-prisons-powers-to-deport/

I find crime abhorrent as I'm sure you do and the more I see and hear on various news outlets saddens me as to the way the world is going. We know there are problems with all sections of community and we all suffer the negative impact of crime. We can't do anything about British citizen offenders other than imprison and hope to rehabilitate and we have loads of those to deal with but we can do something about those who are not citizens. 10k is just those who are in prison now not the number who have been convicted, jailed and released or sentenced to a non custodial.

 

[WATFORD zero]

We have 10k foreign nationals in prison in the UK I don't think that has any bearing as to how long their sentence is. My understanding is that sentence is served before deportation if over 1 year and general release if less.

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/foreign-national-offenders-in-uk-prisons-powers-to-deport/

I find crime abhorrent as I'm sure you do and the more I see and hear on various news outlets saddens me as to the way the world is going. We know there are problems with all sections of community and we all suffer the negative impact of crime. We can't do anything about British citizen offenders other than imprison and hope to rehabilitate and we have loads of those to deal with but we can do something about those who are not citizens. 10k is just those who are in prison now not the number who have been convicted, jailed and released or sentenced to a non custodial.

Indeed, because the 10K figure you keep quoting is made up of 6,423 who have actually been convicted and sentenced, 3,589 on remand and 343 non-criminal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-july-to-september-2024/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-july-to-september-2024#:~:text=Foreign National Offenders (FNOs),of the total prison population.

It's why you should always give sources rather than guesses.

 

[Randy McNob]

Excelent deconstruction of Farage's BS

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think the discussion has meandered away from the original point which was a foreign national, released from a period of imprisonment and ordered to be deported after serving that sentence, then claimed asylum. Now that does seem wrong.

If you come to this country with a genuine case to claim asylum but can't behave for long enough for your claim to be considered / processed and commit a crime of such severity that you get banged up, then you should lose any right to claim asylum and should be deported immediately sentence has been served.

Lodge your asylum claim, keep your nose clean whilst it is considered, abide by the decision. How difficult can it be?

If you commit a crime of such severity you get banged up for 12 months or more then you currently WILL be deported at the end of it.

What @nevergoagain is proposing is a situation where you could have a young asylum seeker OR person here legally on a visa who is attacked by a racist gang and fights back and gets a fine for affray being chucked out, while a rapist from South Sudan or Crimea or Gaza will be kept in prison for a long time at the British tax payer's expense and will then find there may be nowhere that will accept him at the end of the sentence.

It's very easy to stand on a soap box and yell "deport all foreign criminals" but it's less easy to design good legislation that allows for the corner cases. This is why Reform are effective as a populist protest party but would be absolutely hopeless in government.

 

[nicko31]

Excelent deconstruction of Farage's BS

Any grift will do

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I think the discussion has meandered away from the original point which was a foreign national, released from a period of imprisonment and ordered to be deported after serving that sentence, then claimed asylum. Now that does seem wrong.

If you come to this country with a genuine case to claim asylum but can't behave for long enough for your claim to be considered / processed and commit a crime of such severity that you get banged up, then you should lose any right to claim asylum and should be deported immediately sentence has been served.

Lodge your asylum claim, keep your nose clean whilst it is considered, abide by the decision. How difficult can it be?

If the person who has committed the crime, is to be deported, but there is an extremely strong possibility they will be killed when they arrive, then what happens?

 

[darkwolf666]

Excelent deconstruction of Farage's BS

Funny how those that defend Farage ALWAYS conveniently ignore posts like this. "What video, I didn't see a video, Nigel is a man of the people, int' e"...

 

[Bodian]

I think the discussion has meandered away from the original point which was a foreign national, released from a period of imprisonment and ordered to be deported after serving that sentence, then claimed asylum. Now that does seem wrong.

If you come to this country with a genuine case to claim asylum but can't behave for long enough for your claim to be considered / processed and commit a crime of such severity that you get banged up, then you should lose any right to claim asylum and should be deported immediately sentence has been served.

Lodge your asylum claim, keep your nose clean whilst it is considered, abide by the decision. How difficult can it be?

You're right. It meandered away when I asked @nevergoagain to provide some figures as to how many people this actually was ['playing the system' was their term for it) We've not had them yet - so it's difficult to determine the scale of the issue, or even if it is actually an issue at all.

 

[Gwylan]

I haven't caught this thread for a while but I'm staggered to see so many pages talking about deportations of criminals and the ECHR. There are surely only a handful of cases each year where a foreign criminal invokes human rights legislation to prevent deportation. These are fine legal points but pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

No-one at all has picked up something much more meaningful ie Farage's speech yesterday where he let rip on public spending commitments and was blasé about the cost. If Corbyn unveiled a plan that would involve £50 of uncosted expendiure, he would be roasted the next day and yet, the right wing press is full of praise. Have people gone mad? Has everyone forgotten that just three years ago, Truss's economic plans (which involved a smaller amount of uncosted expenditure) were ripped apart by the City, saw a rise in interest nears and very nearly a collapse of the pension industry? Reform don't want a magic money tree; they want a rain forest - but no-one seems bothered.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Despite the polls shouting out about Reform, they aren’t winning every seat. Admittedly Hampshire, Sussex and Surrey aren’t their hunting grounds.

Three By-Election results from last night:

Hedge End South (Eastleigh)
Horsham Riverside (West Sussex)
Carshalton South and Clockhouse (Sutton)

Lib Dems won them all.
Reform UK were 3rd in them all.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I haven't caught this thread for a while but I'm staggered to see so many pages talking about deportations of criminals and the ECHR. There are surely only a handful of cases each year where a foreign criminal invokes human rights legislation to prevent deportation. These are fine legal points but pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

No-one at all has picked up something much more meaningful ie Farage's speech yesterday where he let rip on public spending commitments and was blasé about the cost. If Corbyn unveiled a plan that would involve £50 of uncosted expendiure, he would be roasted the next day and yet, the right wing press is full of praise. Have people gone mad? Has everyone forgotten that just three years ago, Truss's economic plans (which involved a smaller amount of uncosted expenditure) were ripped apart by the City, saw a rise in interest nears and very nearly a collapse of the pension industry? Reform don't want a magic money tree; they want a rain forest - but no-one seems bothered.

That hits the nail on the head though because a lot of people don't care about reckless spending of the public purse if it's spent by the "right person" on the "right things". Therefore sensible spending by Starmer on projects to help the environment and potentially prevent an existential disaster is seen as woke and reckless, whereas mad, uncosted spending by Nigel would be all about sending the forriners back, so it'd be ok.

 

[darkwolf666]

That hits the nail on the head though because a lot of people don't care about reckless spending of the public purse if it's spent by the "right person" on the "right things". Therefore sensible spending by Starmer on projects to help the environment and potentially prevent an existential disaster is seen as woke and reckless, whereas mad, uncosted spending by Nigel would be all about sending the forriners back, so it'd be ok.

About sums it up, and all fostered and promoted by the right wing media, who know the Conservatives are toast so are getting into bed (figuratively) with Farage... Wonder what could be in it for them?

 

[amexer]

I am no fan of Farage but with no leadership qualities at either of other parties people do listen to him. To these people I would say it is so easy to run the country when not in government.

 

[jimhigham]

I haven't caught this thread for a while but I'm staggered to see so many pages talking about deportations of criminals and the ECHR. There are surely only a handful of cases each year where a foreign criminal invokes human rights legislation to prevent deportation. These are fine legal points but pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

No-one at all has picked up something much more meaningful ie Farage's speech yesterday where he let rip on public spending commitments and was blasé about the cost. If Corbyn unveiled a plan that would involve £50 of uncosted expendiure, he would be roasted the next day and yet, the right wing press is full of praise. Have people gone mad? Has everyone forgotten that just three years ago, Truss's economic plans (which involved a smaller amount of uncosted expenditure) were ripped apart by the City, saw a rise in interest nears and very nearly a collapse of the pension industry? Reform don't want a magic money tree; they want a rain forest - but no-one seems bothered.

Absolutely. Well said, @Gwylan - There's an excellent deconstruction of Farage's fantasist funding formula here...