ID cards being sneaked in by the back door?

[Westdene Seagull]

As has also been said, how come nearly every other European country has an ID card scheme but you hear little about security issues. I believe that places like Holland, Germany, France, Belguim and others that were in the area of WWII had ID cards forced on all citizens after the war.

Sorry to quote you again but this is an interesting article ( yes I know it needs to be taken with a little pinch of salt ). It's noticable that the most powerful and security driven country in the world doesn't have a proper ID Card scheme - why on earth do we need one then ? Also note France don't really have it any more - well it's not compulsory and so that makes it rather pointless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_identity_card_policies_by_country

 

[Superphil]

Come on someone give me a reason to give my biometric data and more importantly another digital photo to the government.. This is interesting because as an anti ID person I am always trying to justify why I don't want them. But now I have started to ask why I need one no one has yet given me an answer.

I'll try, might be simplistic but here goes.

[assumes cards will be secure and not forgable]

If you are trying to buy an age restricted product, you have to provide a valid ID card to make the purchase.

If you are taking a driving test for someone else (I have been asked to do this for money in the past) then you won't be able to.

If you are required to provide your identity, say to a GP while you are out of town in an emergency, your ID card will provide the information the GP, or in the event A&E might need to save your life.

If someone tries to open a bank account in your name, to use in the act of committing crime the ID card details will prevent this.

If you are applying for a job working with kids then your card will provide peace of mind to the potetntial emplyer (assuming you haven't been convicted of a sex offence)

If you are wrongly arrested in conjunction with a criminal investigation your card will provide accurate information about you to the relevent authorities, thus reducing time wasting.

If your DNA record matches someone who desparetely needs bone marrow, you can be approached.

If your DNA record links you in any way to crime the police can either eliminate you from their enquires or put you in jail, whichever is appropriate. Think of the time and money just this point would save the police, courts, and ultimately the deterent effect would even reduce crime in the first place.

There are so many ways that a properly run ID Card scheme would be beneficial. I personally don't believe this, or any British government could ever implement this successfully, but if they could I would be right behind it.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Anybody who thinks The Government can be trusted with collating all our personal information; sticking it on a single card & using it for our democratic well-being is - at best - extremely naive imo. This present bunch of self-serving, dictatorial scumbags make me f***ing vomit. I hope they get annihilated in the next general election. The only trouble is the next lot will probably be just as bad. Wankers!!

 

[Superphil]

It's noticable that the most powerful and security driven country in the world doesn't have a proper ID Card scheme - why on earth do we need one then ? Also note France don't really have it any more - well it's not compulsory and so that makes it rather pointless.

Don't mind at all, at least this is a debate, not a binfest.

Fair point about the USA, can't think of anything to say about that. As for France, well, are you suprised, they just get on with their own thing, and bollocks to the rest of the world. Also, they don't have the monkey of Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq threatening their national security on their back in the way we do.

 

[Dandyman]

Its not just hardened lefties

YouTube - Magna Carta Appeal

Indeed. It's interesting that the real left and libertarian Tories both have a concept of individual liberty that is lacking in authoritarians of all stripes.

 

[Clothes Peg]

I think and ID card would be great. I'd be able to close my purse properly and throw out all the bits of crap that I have to carry. I very much doubt all the official databases could be co-ordinated successfully though.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think and ID card would be great. I'd be able to close my purse properly and throw out all the bits of crap that I have to carry. I very much doubt all the official databases could be co-ordinated successfully though.

If nothing else that's got to be the strangest arguement in favour of them

 

[desprateseagull]

one of several concerns is if ID card becomes the norm, and you lose it or the system breaks, how do people get access to services, essential medicines, etc?
(sorry sir, your names not on the list, so youre not coming in..).

 

[Clothes Peg]

If nothing else that's got to be the strangest arguement in favour of them

I'm all in favour for a simple life. If the government knowing all my info saves me the hassle of filling out forms, then I'm all for it. People would get their entitlements without having to apply for them first. Sounds great to me. I read 1984 and thought that I would love to live in that kind of society, just quietly settle in and let the state look after and direct me. I bet there would be far less occurences of stress, depression, bi-polar and other disorders if we were kept busy and just told what to do all the time.

In fact, I think we should all be chipped like dogs. That would solve the 'what if you lost the card' argument.

 

[Don't get me started]

I'll try, might be simplistic but here goes.

[assumes cards will be secure and not forgable]

If you are trying to buy an age restricted product, you have to provide a valid ID card to make the purchase.

Not applicable as I am an old fart and dont see why I should have a card to help an 18year old buy beer.

If you are taking a driving test for someone else (I have been asked to do this for money in the past) then you won't be able to.

I am innocent and would tell them to F Off ..dont assume I am guilty

If you are required to provide your identity, say to a GP while you are out of town in an emergency, your ID card will provide the information the GP, or in the event A&E might need to save your life.

I carry a blood donor card and have ICE programmed into my phone,

If someone tries to open a bank account in your name, to use in the act of committing crime the ID card details will prevent this.

Banks problem not mine, an inconvienience granted but not as bad as carrying an ID card

If you are applying for a job working with kids then your card will provide peace of mind to the potetntial emplyer (assuming you haven't been convicted of a sex offence).

Will you stop assuming I am guilty of something

If you are wrongly arrested in conjunction with a criminal investigation your card will provide accurate information about you to the relevent authorities, thus reducing time wasting. What for instance?

If your DNA record matches someone who desparetely needs bone marrow, you can be approached.
Too old, anyway when I wasn't I would volunteer if I wanted to do that

If your DNA record links you in any way to crime the police can either eliminate you from their enquires or put you in jail, whichever is appropriate. Think of the time and money just this point would save the police, courts, and ultimately the deterent effect would even reduce crime in the first place.

What the DNA record they dont have one on me and again stop assuming I am guilty of something

There are so many ways that a properly run ID Card scheme would be beneficial. I personally don't believe this, or any British government could ever implement this successfully, but if they could I would be right behind it.

No sorry got me there as well...


You see ID Cards in line with the government assume we are all shit bags which is why they want to tag us, when actually only a small percentage of the population are rotten, I hate to say it but if the police did there job a bit more efficiently then there would be no argument.. I dont blame the average copper but their overlords are becoming power mad.

 

[veade]

if they find illegals will they deport them answer NO so whats the point

 

[drew]

Might I suggest that we give the police / security services the following powers then :

> The right to open your mail before the postman puts in through your letter box

> The right to search your property without a warrant

> The right to stop and search you without reasonable suspicion

After all, if you have nothing to hide it won't matter to you. The arguement is ridiculous - the authorities should have the minimum amount of powers and data necessary to keep us safe. The data that is proposed to be collected for the ID card is excessive and not necessary.

Most countries have some form of ID card - agreed - we already do too - driving licences and passports.

whilst I don't agree with you do argue well apart from your major flaw, not everyone is required to have a driving licence or passport!!!!

 

[Superphil]

[assumes cards will be secure and not forgable]

If you are trying to buy an age restricted product, you have to provide a valid ID card to make the purchase.

Not applicable as I am an old fart and dont see why I should have a card to help an 18year old buy beer

Get over yourself, you shouldn't, and indeed that won't be the reason you have one

If you are taking a driving test for someone else (I have been asked to do this for money in the past) then you won't be able to.

I am innocent and would tell them to F Off ..dont assume I am guilty

Get over yourself, at no point did anyone accuse you of anything, FFS, read the first word of my comment "IF". However, if you had a card, then no-one would approach you, as it would be pointless, so that's that crime prevented, one less uninsured driver on the road, and you weren't even accused of anything.

If you are required to provide your identity, say to a GP while you are out of town in an emergency, your ID card will provide the information the GP, or in the event A&E might need to save your life.

I carry a blood donor card and have ICE programmed into my phone,

I don't and nor do a lot of people, when I go out of an evening I don't carry my phone. However, I do carry my wallet, which, if it had an ID card in it could prove useful.

If someone tries to open a bank account in your name, to use in the act of committing crime the ID card details will prevent this.

Banks problem not mine, an inconvienience granted but not as bad as carrying an ID card

Wouldn't you ever like to help anyone out? The banks are crucified if they let fraud get through them, look at the money laundering problems (from criminals), if we all had an ID card they would be less likely to be conned. Now that DOES effect you, me and anyone who uses the banking system. By carrying a card, a little bit of plastic, you too could help improve the service we get, and reduce the costs of fraud, which ultimately gets passed onto the customers, i.e. you and I

If you are applying for a job working with kids then your card will provide peace of mind to the potetntial emplyer (assuming you haven't been convicted of a sex offence).

Will you stop assuming I am guilty of something

Get a life. Do you believe that applicants for jobs working with kids, or vunerable people shouldn't be checked? They already are, and that is not going to change, an ID card would provide a quick and easy way to carry out that check. Would you think they were assuming you were guilty if they made that check on you? No, of course not, they ARE JUST CHECKING

If you are wrongly arrested in conjunction with a criminal investigation your card will provide accurate information about you to the relevent authorities, thus reducing time wasting. What for instance?

Oh, I don't know, for example, a crowd after a football match, pissed up lairy moron, gets his collar felt, gives the OB the wrong name, yours, oh, but if he had given his ID Card you would never have been even in the frame.

If your DNA record matches someone who desparetely needs bone marrow, you can be approached.
Too old, anyway when I wasn't I would volunteer if I wanted to do that
So, if a person in the far west country, or somewhere remote in the north needs help, and you, a voluneer doesn't hear about it they don't get the marrow? It would be much more efficient, even nicer, if the NHS can contact all the matching people in the country and ask them if they would consider the donation

If your DNA record links you in any way to crime the police can either eliminate you from their enquires or put you in jail, whichever is appropriate. Think of the time and money just this point would save the police, courts, and ultimately the deterent effect would even reduce crime in the first place.

What the DNA record they dont have one on me and again stop assuming I am guilty of something

There you go again, NO-ONE HAS ASSUMED YOU ARE GUILTY OF ANYTHING. What if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and wrongly arrested, and put through the pain of false accusations, waiting for a DNA test to come back to prove you didn't commit a revolting crime? But if you had a card, they would just need a simple swipe, and they would know it wasn't you. I know which I would prefer.

I have tried to make objective points here, one of the items has happened to me, and I have also been the victim of bank fraud. Both of these could have been prevented if effective ID cards were in use. The comments by the anti card people are so extreme, so aggressive, I don't really understand that. It makes you understand why there are those who say "if you have nothing to hide..." ( I don't BTW).

For me, I don't really care one way or the other, but I think it is unhealthy to constantly refer to violation of rights, assumption of guilt, etc. In this country you are innocent until proved guilty, and if a piece of plastic can help that along, then how can it be a bad thing?

 

[drew]

No sorry got me there as well...


You see ID Cards in line with the government assume we are all shit bags which is why they want to tag us, when actually only a small percentage of the population are rotten, I hate to say it but if the police did there job a bit more efficiently then there would be no argument.. I dont blame the average copper but their overlords are becoming power mad.

Presumably then you don't assume everyone is a shitbag and no doubt never lock your front door or your car. The government do not consider us all shitbags and it's stupid to say so. I am personally not against them in principle but feel the proposals need refining.

 

[Icy Gull]

.

Come on someone give me a reason to give my biometric data and more importantly another digital photo to the government.. This is interesting because as an anti ID person I am always trying to justify why I don't want them. But now I have started to ask why I need one no one has yet given me an answer.

I'm not bothered either way, if they introduce them I won't be upset, if they don't I'm not bothered. I accept your point about justifying why you should have one but by the same token I haven't seen a valid reason as to why we shouldn't have them.

 

[binky]

I'll try, might be simplistic but here goes.

Yes.

[assumes cards will be secure and not forgable]

That's quite an assumption, but we'll go with it for now.

If you are trying to buy an age restricted product, you have to provide a valid ID card to make the purchase.

This will make no difference to the retailers who currently sell age restricted products to the age restricted without recourse to checking any ID.
The only way I can see this bein enforcable, is if there is some kind of auditing of stock against an ID which has to be presented, electronically captured, and centrally processed.
While this scenario may give some of our rulers wet dreams, I'm sure it is too much for todays viable, affordable computing power. Tomorrow though...
No need for a compulsory profiling database for this, and an ID card will make little difference.

If you are taking a driving test for someone else (I have been asked to do this for money in the past) then you won't be able to.

Given.
I can't think of a reason why this practice wouldn't be stopped by a totalitarian style, forced, compulsory, all encompassing, ID scheme.
(A bit over the top though, don't you think?)

If you are required to provide your identity, say to a GP while you are out of town in an emergency, your ID card will provide the information the GP, or in the event A&E might need to save your life.

I carry ID on my person. If I had some kind of condition or allergy, I would carry information about it. I'd be foolish not to.
But that's the point. It's my CHOICE.
BTW. The ID card will not in itself carry your full medical history in it's chip. At least, not initially. In future I expect it will have to carry your entire life history and profile just incase an officor of the state want's to check it.
For the moment though, it is to just carry an ID, and some biometrics.

If someone tries to open a bank account in your name, to use in the act of committing crime the ID card details will prevent this.

Prevent is a strong word here, because I believe that all systems and processes are circumventable. However, you have claimed these cards are unforgeable, and we are running with that assumption for the moment.
The ID cards will not help however, in the case of a crooked bank teller, an inside job. Humans will be the weak link.

If you are applying for a job working with kids then your card will provide peace of mind to the potetntial emplyer (assuming you haven't been convicted of a sex offence)

There are already processes in place to deal with this. Not that I agree with the intrusive and degrading checks which you have to go through now.
They are sufficient to have stopped me volunteering to work at local schools as I used to.
There must be a better way, but that does not include profiling my entire life on a database and turning me into a number.
With all due respect to those who have been affected, the whole sex offender thing seems to me to have been blown up out of all proportion by the media, and those with a vested interest in having more control over our lives.
The final straw came when I was treated as little more than a criminal, simply because I was a man, willing to work with kids. However, this is a whole other discussion, and I mustn't let myself get carried away in the context of THIS discussion.

If you are wrongly arrested in conjunction with a criminal investigation your card will provide accurate information about you to the relevent authorities, thus reducing time wasting.

I expect the arresting authorities, (let us not forget that it isn't just the police any more), to be excercising "due diligence".
I don't expect to have to use/carry/pay for a card to avoid being arrested, or to "save time".
Anyway, why would I be arrested, or even be worried about NOT having a card.... If I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to fear.
Or doesn't that argument fly the other way round?

If your DNA record matches someone who desparetely needs bone marrow, you can be approached.

What if I don't want to be approached?
Not everyone is altruistic. And they shouldn't have to be. And they shouldn't be pressured into being.
With the prospect of a (near) compulsory donor card, how easy it would be to take the next logical step to compulsory bone marrow donation? Kidney? after all you have two.
Even if not compulsorary, if the information is out there, how long before simply asking, becomes asking with menaces.
Would the red-tops be within their rights to name and shame owners of rare blood types who decided not to donate, and "save a childs life"?
This is a world I wouldn't want to be a part of, and yet one which we are already approaching.

If your DNA record links you in any way to crime the police can either eliminate you from their enquires or put you in jail, whichever is appropriate. Think of the time and money just this point would save the police, courts, and ultimately the deterent effect would even reduce crime in the first place.

You have an incomplete understanding of how DNA evidence works. It has already put people in prison for crimes they did not commit.
Just because your DNA is at a crime scene does not mean you were involved.
Anyway, we already have a system of taking DNA samples from suspects and matching them to DNA from crime scenes.
We SHOULD be throwing away the samples of non convicted suspects, but we have already started down that slippery slope by retaining them.
Having everyones DNA easily available will undermine the requirement for more traditional forms of evidence, and will be seen as a shortcut in policing.
It will also provide an easy way to frame someone. Do you have any idea just how much DNA you spray around each day. It's relatively easy to harvest and place where you have never been.

There are so many ways that a properly run ID Card scheme would be beneficial. I personally don't believe this, or any British government could ever implement this successfully, but if they could I would be right behind it.

I can see how some of these scenarios would be beneficial. I just want to CHOOSE if they will be beneficial to me.
At the moment I am seeing that I will...
a) Have to pay money to have a card and be added to the ID register
b) Have to inconvenience myself by travelling to a "center" to be processed
c) Have to give up information which I consider to be private.
d) lose a little of my liberty.

All things considered, I don't want that. Particularly as I don't see any immediate benefits for me, commensurate with what I will be giving up in cash, time and liberty.
However, I have been given no choice.
Therein lies my reservations.

There is so much more to say on this subject, we have barely scratched the surface.
Still, it's long past my bedtime, so I'll just have to post this as it is, and hope I've not missed too many material points.

 

[Superphil]

Thank you Binky for your points, all well made. It is a subject that will continue to divide people, but do bear in mind, it divides people, there are many very well informed people who support the concept of ID cards and will try to implement them.

BTW, I don't consider myself particularly well informed, and I am sure that most people would agree, either way, that they are not so, but we all have a little understanding, and that is what enables us to form our opinions.

Personally, as I have mentioned before, I don't really give a toss, I will certainly resent being made to pay for them, and I will not be happy to provide additional information about myself that is not already out there. I think that the whole thing is a long way off, simply because, as many have pointed out, the technology to do it is not there, not on the scale it would need to be.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

not everyone is required to have a driving licence or passport!!!!

agreed - much like the government are proposing not making the ID card compulsory - a uttery pointless costly scheme with little or no benefit.

 

[Superphil]

agreed - much like the government are proposing not making the ID card compulsory - a uttery pointless costly scheme with little or no benefit.

If that is to be the case, then I too would be 100% anti the whole thing, pointless, a total waste of time, money and resources.

 

[Don't get me started]

[assumes cards will be secure and not forgable]

If you are trying to buy an age restricted product, you have to provide a valid ID card to make the purchase.

Not applicable as I am an old fart and dont see why I should have a card to help an 18year old buy beer

Get over yourself, you shouldn't, and indeed that won't be the reason you have one

If you are taking a driving test for someone else (I have been asked to do this for money in the past) then you won't be able to.

I am innocent and would tell them to F Off ..dont assume I am guilty

Get over yourself, at no point did anyone accuse you of anything, FFS, read the first word of my comment "IF". However, if you had a card, then no-one would approach you, as it would be pointless, so that's that crime prevented, one less uninsured driver on the road, and you weren't even accused of anything.

If you are required to provide your identity, say to a GP while you are out of town in an emergency, your ID card will provide the information the GP, or in the event A&E might need to save your life.

I carry a blood donor card and have ICE programmed into my phone,

I don't and nor do a lot of people, when I go out of an evening I don't carry my phone. However, I do carry my wallet, which, if it had an ID card in it could prove useful.

If someone tries to open a bank account in your name, to use in the act of committing crime the ID card details will prevent this.

Banks problem not mine, an inconvienience granted but not as bad as carrying an ID card

Wouldn't you ever like to help anyone out? The banks are crucified if they let fraud get through them, look at the money laundering problems (from criminals), if we all had an ID card they would be less likely to be conned. Now that DOES effect you, me and anyone who uses the banking system. By carrying a card, a little bit of plastic, you too could help improve the service we get, and reduce the costs of fraud, which ultimately gets passed onto the customers, i.e. you and I

If you are applying for a job working with kids then your card will provide peace of mind to the potetntial emplyer (assuming you haven't been convicted of a sex offence).

Will you stop assuming I am guilty of something

Get a life. Do you believe that applicants for jobs working with kids, or vunerable people shouldn't be checked? They already are, and that is not going to change, an ID card would provide a quick and easy way to carry out that check. Would you think they were assuming you were guilty if they made that check on you? No, of course not, they ARE JUST CHECKING

If you are wrongly arrested in conjunction with a criminal investigation your card will provide accurate information about you to the relevent authorities, thus reducing time wasting. What for instance?

Oh, I don't know, for example, a crowd after a football match, pissed up lairy moron, gets his collar felt, gives the OB the wrong name, yours, oh, but if he had given his ID Card you would never have been even in the frame.

If your DNA record matches someone who desparetely needs bone marrow, you can be approached.
Too old, anyway when I wasn't I would volunteer if I wanted to do that
So, if a person in the far west country, or somewhere remote in the north needs help, and you, a voluneer doesn't hear about it they don't get the marrow? It would be much more efficient, even nicer, if the NHS can contact all the matching people in the country and ask them if they would consider the donation

If your DNA record links you in any way to crime the police can either eliminate you from their enquires or put you in jail, whichever is appropriate. Think of the time and money just this point would save the police, courts, and ultimately the deterent effect would even reduce crime in the first place.

What the DNA record they dont have one on me and again stop assuming I am guilty of something

There you go again, NO-ONE HAS ASSUMED YOU ARE GUILTY OF ANYTHING. What if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and wrongly arrested, and put through the pain of false accusations, waiting for a DNA test to come back to prove you didn't commit a revolting crime? But if you had a card, they would just need a simple swipe, and they would know it wasn't you. I know which I would prefer.

I have tried to make objective points here, one of the items has happened to me, and I have also been the victim of bank fraud. Both of these could have been prevented if effective ID cards were in use. The comments by the anti card people are so extreme, so aggressive, I don't really understand that. It makes you understand why there are those who say "if you have nothing to hide..." ( I don't BTW).

For me, I don't really care one way or the other, but I think it is unhealthy to constantly refer to violation of rights, assumption of guilt, etc. In this country you are innocent until proved guilty, and if a piece of plastic can help that along, then how can it be a bad thing?

Thanks for taking the time to put your points across, I am still not convinced though but I respect your right to spend your 80quid buying one of these as we will have no choice.
I on the other hand will go to jail rather than carry one of these, it will be the only crime I have ever committed (apart from a couple of speeding tickets).

I do have to say that your defense of the banks is a bit suspect, we have just bailed the robbimg bastards out for 50bn and now everyone must pay £80 to protect them.. Sorry.