ID cards being sneaked in by the back door?

[Dandyman]

Well that is a good point, we already have an ID card its called an NI card.

So why the need for an ID card, just either make the ID card more effective to incorporate NHS number and E11, plus flexible enough to adopt other agreed details such as library card.

All of which sounds like throwing taxpayers money to another government computer fiasco for no good reason - if we already have the cards, why do we need another one? In the present economic situation I'm sure we can all thinkof better uses for the money, including regeneration initiatives.

 

[Superphil]

Agreed. And for the other argument, yes I would happily give a DNA sample voluntarily.

As indeed would I, and would many people I know. I would also accept an ID card gladly. Frankly I don't give a stuff what information "they" have about me, I have nothing to hide.

No-one has ever managed to point out just what it is thay are afraid the authorities will get hold of. My medical records can be found by speaking to my GP. My criminal record, if I had one, is a police matter, they already have the info. My employer, see HMRC, my address, it's on my letters. Where I go on holiday, already known by the passport readers at airports. Wouldn't it be so much easier if all this info was available from one scan of a card? The person scanning it would only have clearance to see what they need to know, what exactly is the problem with that?

 

[London Calling]

All of which sounds like throwing taxpayers money to another government computer fiasco for no good reason - if we already have the cards, why do we need another one? In the present economic situation I'm sure we can all thinkof better uses for the money, including regeneration initiatives.

Agree. This is now about politics and not lossing face, it was Blunkett big idea, as a big name he had to have one, he was let lose with it and basically lost control.

If we were polled on this a real poll, with proper questions and including would yo vote for a Government to introduce an ID card with say 5 positives and 5 negatives, I bet majority of people would say no.

 

[Superphil]

Might I suggest that we give the police / security services the following powers then :

> The right to open your mail before the postman puts in through your letter box

> The right to search your property without a warrant

> The right to stop and search you without reasonable suspicion

After all, if you have nothing to hide it won't matter to you. The arguement is ridiculous - the authorities should have the minimum amount of powers and data necessary to keep us safe. The data that is proposed to be collected for the ID card is excessive and not necessary.

Most countries have some form of ID card - agreed - we already do too - driving licences and passports.

What "extra" powers does the proposed ID card give the authorities then?
If they want to open your post they need permission, and why would that be any different if you had an ID card?
They would still require a warrent to search your house.
What has stop and search got to do with ID cards

Not yet but they're trying !!! Currently they need a magistrate to authorise them to get your email from an ISP or your mobile phone calls from a telecoms provider.

The government are using the "war on terror" arguement to sleep walk us into a police state. Amazingly many people still trust them and so support the idea - much like the ID cards - but then I guess theres not accounting for gulability.

And they still will.

What on earth do any of these arguements have to do with ID cards?

 

[London Calling]

As indeed would I, and would many people I know. I would also accept an ID card gladly. Frankly I don't give a stuff what information "they" have about me, I have nothing to hide.

No-one has ever managed to point out just what it is thay are afraid the authorities will get hold of. My medical records can be found by speaking to my GP. My criminal record, if I had one, is a police matter, they already have the info. My employer, see HMRC, my address, it's on my letters. Where I go on holiday, already known by the passport readers at airports. Wouldn't it be so much easier if all this info was available from one scan of a card? The person scanning it would only have clearance to see what they need to know, what exactly is the problem with that?

Altenatively why does a Government need to know where you been on hoilday? We are not a big brother communist state, what a pathetic use of IT?

As far I am aware your passport will still remain and would you really want our state and others who be able to assess the information, to really know that you have a Police record? Can be used by US customes to stop entry.

Israele State would love you trying to enter their country after being arrested on that anti Zionist march.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

As indeed would I, and would many people I know. I would also accept an ID card gladly. Frankly I don't give a stuff what information "they" have about me, I have nothing to hide.

No-one has ever managed to point out just what it is thay are afraid the authorities will get hold of. My medical records can be found by speaking to my GP. My criminal record, if I had one, is a police matter, they already have the info. My employer, see HMRC, my address, it's on my letters. Where I go on holiday, already known by the passport readers at airports. Wouldn't it be so much easier if all this info was available from one scan of a card? The person scanning it would only have clearance to see what they need to know, what exactly is the problem with that?

Currently alot of this data is only obtainable using a court order and so there is some check and balance. Putting all into one place is a hugh risk - especially as they are proposing to make some of the data available to other agencies ( as yet not fully defined ). Remember, this is a government :

> That lost the details of 25m people claiming the childrens credit

> Lost data on thousands of prison officers and police

> Left confidential papers on a train

> Lost data on thousands of Northern Ireland drivers

And you want me to TRUST them with my data ?? You must be MAD !!!

Not to mention that the data could be used by a government in the future - who's to say we won't get a BNP government in 50 years time ? I'm sure the people of Germany in 1925 scoffed at the possibility of getting a Nazi government.

 

[Icy Gull]

I also have no problem with an ID card, it seems the hardened lefties are the ones who have the biggest problem with them

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What "extra" powers does the proposed ID card give the authorities then?
If they want to open your post they need permission, and why would that be any different if you had an ID card?
They would still require a warrent to search your house.
What has stop and search got to do with ID cards




And they still will.

What on earth do any of these arguements have to do with ID cards?

You used the arguement "if you have nothing to hide" in their support - I was pointing out how ridiculous that arguement was by using examples that, assuming you have nothing to hide, you might like to have happen to you.

 

[Mackenzie]

Another step towards the police state I'm afraid to say. Carefull, Big Brother is watching you.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I also have no problem with an ID card, it seems the hardened lefties are the ones who have the biggest problem with them

I certainly wouldn't call myself a leftie let alone a hardened one. In fact I'd probably be considered a righty !

 

[Superphil]

Altenatively why does a Government need to know where you been on hoilday? We are not a big brother communist state, what a pathetic use of IT?

As far I am aware your passport will still remain and would you really want our state and others who be able to assess the information, to really know that you have a Police record? Can be used by US customes to stop entry.

Israele State would love you trying to enter their country after being arrested on that anti Zionist march.

FFS, they DON'T want to know where you have been on holiday, but they would be able to establish your whereabouts should a situation arise, if youe ID card carried this information.

If the US don't want you because you have a criminal record, then that is their perogative, at least they seem to care about who enters their country. Will the Americans, or any other country have the ability to read your British ID card? As for Israel, same thing, will they be able to read my card? They can't read my library card, or my nectar points card, why would they be able to read my ID card.

Currently alot of this data is only obtainable using a court order and so there is some check and balance. Putting all into one place is a hugh risk - especially as they are proposing to make some of the data available to other agencies ( as yet not fully defined ). Remember, this is a government :

Ah, I see, it's a huge risk, therein lies the point, it is a risk, same as issuing a passport, an NI card, both of which are flawed and regularly forged and used by criminals, benefit thiefs etc. Also a risk is crossing the road, or having unprotected sex.

Why are so many people utterly convinced that the government will hand out inappropriate details to all and sundry, when, as you rightly point out, it is as yet not fully defined. Do you really think the goverment will give the local florist all your medical records and criminal activities? Will the Police be given the ability to see your Dental Records, will your GP be asking you about a Library Book you haven't taken back? Of course not, the relevent people will have the relevent access. When I go into a shop to buy something, the shop assistant isn't going to have my PIN, that information is mine, and no-one else has it apart from the bank, in fact I am not sure if even they have it, it is all encrypted.

Did you know, when you lose your password for NSC, Bozza cannot tell you it, he does not have that information, the software running this forum automatically encrypts it, making it secure. My reckoning is that the government will use something even more sophisticated for the ID card scheme.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Did you know, when you lose your password for NSC, Bozza cannot tell you it, he does not have that information, the software running this forum automatically encrypts it, making it secure. My reckoning is that the government will use something even more sophisticated for the ID card scheme.

Like when they put data on unencrypted usb pens you mean - yes the government are SO security minded. As someone that's worked with government IT I can assure you they are NOT security lead !

 

[coventrygull]

I also have no problem with an ID card, it seems the hardened lefties are the ones who have the biggest problem with them

Its not just hardened lefties

YouTube - Magna Carta Appeal

 

[Superphil]

Like when they put data on unencrypted usb pens you mean - yes the government are SO security minded. As someone that's worked with government IT I can assure you they are NOT security lead !

In that case, I say no to ID cards, never.

 

[Curious Orange]

Did you know, when you lose your password for NSC, Bozza cannot tell you it, he does not have that information, the software running this forum automatically encrypts it, making it secure. My reckoning is that the government will use something even more sophisticated for the ID card scheme.

Probably not that much more sophisticated, and ID cards will be forged you know. There will be two elements, the card, and the database. The card will not be contacting the database every time ID needs to be verified (because it'd just be too slow - millions of queries at once tend to have this affect on a database), instead it will verify against the data held on the cards chip... so pick a suitable name, stick whatever details are required on the forged card including your actual biometrics, and low and behold you are Fred Bloggs because the card reading machine says you are - utterly pointless.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

In that case, I say no to ID cards, never.

I'm assuming that's sarcasm but if not - you know it makes sense

 

[Superphil]

I'm assuming that's sarcasm but if not - you know it makes sense

You know, it is neither. I am 100% not against ID cards. But I do share your concern about the securitym and the govenement have a diabolical record on such matters. As Curious Orange says, ID cards probably will be forgable, so that is probably more urgent that they develop a way to avoid that. Chip & PIN, retinal scans, plenty of ideas are talked about Let's just hope, that if it does happen, that they get the security right.

As has also been said, how come nearly every other European country has an ID card scheme but you hear little about security issues. I believe that places like Holland, Germany, France, Belguim and others that were in the area of WWII had ID cards forced on all citizens after the war.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You know, it is neither. I am 100% not against ID cards. But I do share your concern about the securitym and the govenement have a diabolical record on such matters. As Curious Orange says, ID cards probably will be forgable, so that is probably more urgent that they develop a way to avoid that. Chip & PIN, retinal scans, plenty of ideas are talked about Let's just hope, that if it does happen, that they get the security right.

As has also been said, how come nearly every other European country has an ID card scheme but you hear little about security issues. I believe that places like Holland, Germany, France, Belguim and others that were in the area of WWII had ID cards forced on all citizens after the war.

All fair points - the reason other European countries haven't had the backlash is that we're the first in the world to try to connect it to such a large all encompassing database. It might also have something to do with our government being so lack with data while there are rarely stories of other governments losing quite so much data.

 

[Curious Orange]

As Curious Orange says, ID cards probably will be forgable, so that is probably more urgent that they develop a way to avoid that. Chip & PIN, retinal scans, plenty of ideas are talked about Let's just hope, that if it does happen, that they get the security right.

Chip and pin, retinal scans, and other biometric details held on the card, won't get past the forgery problem though. A good forged card would have the biometric details of the person holding it (and would therefore give a positive ID), it just wouldn't have the pertinent stuff - like their real name etc. The only time it would fail a check is if they actually had to verify against the database itself, and how often will that occur?

 

[Don't get me started]

I also have no problem with an ID card, it seems the hardened lefties are the ones who have the biggest problem with them

Errr Telegraph reader here and I hate the idea, still haven't seen a argument for them on here, just a few people saying "Put me down for one!" god knows why.

Barcoding would be easier and its the same thing. Want to open a bank account? quick scan of the barcode on your wrist that will do nicely.

Come on someone give me a reason to give my biometric data and more importantly another digital photo to the government.. This is interesting because as an anti ID person I am always trying to justify why I don't want them. But now I have started to ask why I need one no one has yet given me an answer.