ID cards being sneaked in by the back door?

[desprateseagull]

Talking Politics - Yahoo! News UK

 

[Don't get me started]

Its depressing and nobody can give me a solid argument why they are required.......But equally nobody seems bothered, I hate the idea of ID cards and all the restrictions on our lives.

Do me a favour and support this lot NO2ID | stop ID cards and the database state

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

It's nothing of the sort. It relates to a Parliamentary Bill, and when they publish the clauses they put out very draft language (or not publish the clauses at all inadvance) in the full knowledge that the Parliamentary process will refine this. That's what has happened here. They put in the "if you have entered the UK" as a piece of draft language. The final language will be much more refined to exclude UK citiziens but include others.

 

[Don't get me started]

It's nothing of the sort. It relates to a Parliamentary Bill, and when they publish the clauses they put out very draft language (or not publish the clauses at all inadvance) in the full knowledge that the Parliamentary process will refine this. That's what has happened here. They put in the "if you have entered the UK" as a piece of draft language. The final language will be much more refined to exclude UK citiziens but include others.

So how will PC Plod know you are British if he stops you?

 

[adrian29uk]

I dont see a problem with ID cards.

A good example of why they would be good, is if someone has entered this country illegally and working, they will be asked to produce an ID card. Is this not a good idea?

If they have a dodgy ID card, which will happen I am sure of it, they will be caught as well.

What about people that are driving around in Cars without Insurance? Police can ask the Driver for their ID card and check their insurance details.

 

[Dandyman]

Typical of the authoritarian mindset of this government, I'm afraid.

IS cards are a scam thought up by a computer company and sold to a government desperate to look tough in dealing with issues which flow from their own inept and dishonest policies.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

The downturn has provided the perfect opportunity to save a few bob and wait for the technology to improve. Why drive it forward ? It's a mystery.

 

[Don't get me started]

I dont see a problem with ID cards.

A good example of why they would be good, is if someone has entered this country illegally and working, they will be asked to produce an ID card. Is this not a good idea?

If they have a dodgy ID card, which will happen I am sure of it, they will be caught as well.

What about people that are driving around in Cars without Insurance? Police can ask the Driver for their ID card and check their insurance details.

You are already being checked by those nice Automatic number plate recognition cameras which have sprung up everywhere, they check whether you have tax, insurance & MOT, but hey they can also follow your journey and record all the details.. Still if you have nothing to hide eh!!

As for illegal workers how will it differ from what already happens when they are found, people will still employ cheap labour and hope to get away with it.

Sorry not convinced I need one for a few illegals....

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I dont see a problem with ID cards.

A good example of why they would be good, is if someone has entered this country illegally and working, they will be asked to produce an ID card. Is this not a good idea?

If they have a dodgy ID card, which will happen I am sure of it, they will be caught as well.

What about people that are driving around in Cars without Insurance? Police can ask the Driver for their ID card and check their insurance details.

Please don't say you're really that naive ?

Firstly, ID cards will not solve the uninsured drivers problem - they already have the best weapon to fight that - namely registration plate recognition cameras in patrol cars that are linked to the insurance database.

It's not actually the ID card itself that many people object to ( including myself ), it's the data collection behind it. Most the data the Government has no right to know, they can not be trusted to keep it secure and, most importantly in my mind, there is no control over what a future government might choose to do with it.

ID Cards are an expensive folly that the Government has, indeed is, trying to con people into accepting. It's an extention of the DNA database that the European Court of Human Rights has justifably slamed as an excessive abuse of power. I assume you'll be volunteering your own DNA to be added as no doubt "you have nothing to hide". Before you point out you didn't say that, I know, but it's a common arguement in favour of ID cards.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

So how will PC Plod know you are British if he stops you?

My understanding is that these are extensions of immigration powers. At the moment if you're an illegal immigrant, but posing as someone with a work permit and plod catches you in amongst a load of other illegal immigrants working, he couldn't demand to see your passport and work permit. This changes that. At the moment police have to plan these things with immigration officers.

Ok some thick plod could walk up to you in the street, say you're an illegal immigrant, you say you aren't, he says you are and nicks you. But he's going to have a hell of an arguement on his hands and there are probably far easier ways for him to cause you grief than demanding to see your ID.

 

[supaseagull]

If you've got nothing to hide, then why be afraid of ID cards. Most other countries have some form of ID card and their liberties haven't been infringed.

The only people who tend to complain about these being bought in are those business leaders who are using cheap, illegal foreign workers, the numpties who would complain about their own farts (most of which live in Falmer) and people with something genuine to hide.

Most normal law abiding people couldn't care less and we already have a form of ID card which every person gets at age 16 - it's called a National Insurance card.

 

[Dandyman]

My understanding is that these are extensions of immigration powers. At the moment if you're an illegal immigrant, but posing as someone with a work permit and plod catches you in amongst a load of other illegal immigrants working, he couldn't demand to see your passport and work permit. This changes that. At the moment police have to plan these things with immigration officers.

Ok some thick plod could walk up to you in the street, say you're an illegal immigrant, you say you aren't, he says you are and nicks you. But he's going to have a hell of an arguement on his hands and there are probably far easier ways for him to cause you grief than demanding to see your ID.

So, in other words it's a way of harassing people who "don't look British" ?

All employers are required by the Asylum & Immigration Act 1996 to satisfy themselves that employees have the right to reside and work in the United Kingdom. Failure to do so leaves the employer open to prosecution and fines.

Most employers will therefore check NINO card, passport, visa, etc - it is fairly easy to establish forgeries especially as they tend to contain common errors.

 

[pasty]

If you've got nothing to hide, then why be afraid of ID cards. Most other countries have some form of ID card and their liberties haven't been infringed.

The only people who tend to complain about these being bought in are those business leaders who are using cheap, illegal foreign workers, the numpties who would complain about their own farts (most of which live in Falmer) and people with something genuine to hide.

Most normal law abiding people couldn't care less and we already have a form of ID card which every person gets at age 16 - it's called a National Insurance card.

Agreed. And for the other argument, yes I would happily give a DNA sample voluntarily.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If you've got nothing to hide, then why be afraid of ID cards. Most other countries have some form of ID card and their liberties haven't been infringed.

The only people who tend to complain about these being bought in are those business leaders who are using cheap, illegal foreign workers, the numpties who would complain about their own farts (most of which live in Falmer) and people with something genuine to hide.

Most normal law abiding people couldn't care less and we already have a form of ID card which every person gets at age 16 - it's called a National Insurance card.

Might I suggest that we give the police / security services the following powers then :

> The right to open your mail before the postman puts in through your letter box

> The right to search your property without a warrant

> The right to stop and search you without reasonable suspicion

After all, if you have nothing to hide it won't matter to you. The arguement is ridiculous - the authorities should have the minimum amount of powers and data necessary to keep us safe. The data that is proposed to be collected for the ID card is excessive and not necessary.

Most countries have some form of ID card - agreed - we already do too - driving licences and passports.

 

[Dandyman]

If you've got nothing to hide, then why be afraid of ID cards. Most other countries have some form of ID card and their liberties haven't been infringed.

The only people who tend to complain about these being bought in are those business leaders who are using cheap, illegal foreign workers, the numpties who would complain about their own farts (most of which live in Falmer) and people with something genuine to hide.

Most normal law abiding people couldn't care less and we already have a form of ID card which every person gets at age 16 - it's called a National Insurance card.

So, why do I need an ID card to live in the country I was born in if I already have document(s) to establish my right to work ?

As for the "if you don't have anything to hide..." argument it does not provide much comfort if you are subject to constant stops and demands for your ID and have no control over where the information on the card is passed to.

I

 

[Dandyman]

Might I suggest that we give the police / security services the following powers then :

> The right to open your mail before the postman puts in through your letter box

> The right to search your property without a warrant

> The right to stop and search you without reasonable suspicion

After all, if you have nothing to hide it won't matter to you. The arguement is ridiculous - the authorities should have the minimum amount of powers and data necessary to keep us safe. The data that is proposed to be collected for the ID card is excessive and not necessary.

Most countries have some form of ID card - agreed - we already do too - driving licences and passports.

Well said. It's easy to give freedoms away, much harder to reclaim them.

 

[Don't get me started]

Might I suggest that we give the police / security services the following powers then :

> The right to open your mail before the postman puts in through your letter box

> The right to search your property without a warrant

> The right to stop and search you without reasonable suspicion

After all, if you have nothing to hide it won't matter to you. The arguement is ridiculous - the authorities should have the minimum amount of powers and data necessary to keep us safe. The data that is proposed to be collected for the ID card is excessive and not necessary.

Most countries have some form of ID card - agreed - we already do too - driving licences and passports.

Errr haven't they already got those 3 powers if you change mail for e mail, still if you have nothing to hide eh!

 

[London Calling]

So, in other words it's a way of harassing people who "don't look British" ?

All employers are required by the Asylum & Immigration Act 1996 to satisfy themselves that employees have the right to reside and work in the United Kingdom. Failure to do so leaves the employer open to prosecution and fines.

Most employers will therefore check NINO card, passport, visa, etc - it is fairly easy to establish forgeries especially as they tend to contain common errors.

And will ask for NI number? Therefore No need for ID cards for this group! I have said before, if an ID card was soley to replace the plethora of cards (numbers) we already have from the Government and other cards could be added say library card I am OK, with the restrictions on the level of information the State possesses.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Errr haven't they already got those 3 powers if you change mail for e mail, still if you have nothing to hide eh!

Not yet but they're trying !!! Currently they need a magistrate to authorise them to get your email from an ISP or your mobile phone calls from a telecoms provider.

The government are using the "war on terror" arguement to sleep walk us into a police state. Amazingly many people still trust them and so support the idea - much like the ID cards - but then I guess theres not accounting for gulability.

 

[London Calling]

If you've got nothing to hide, then why be afraid of ID cards. Most other countries have some form of ID card and their liberties haven't been infringed.

The only people who tend to complain about these being bought in are those business leaders who are using cheap, illegal foreign workers, the numpties who would complain about their own farts (most of which live in Falmer) and people with something genuine to hide.

Most normal law abiding people couldn't care less and we already have a form of ID card which every person gets at age 16 - it's called a National Insurance card.

Well that is a good point, we already have an ID card its called an NI card.

So why the need for an ID card, just either make the ID card more effective to incorporate NHS number and E11, plus flexible enough to adopt other agreed details such as library card.