Happy now, Sven bashers?

[Marshy]

Were stuck with the useless twat now.
I seriously doubt we will qualify now.

 

[El Presidente]

Frank Lampard: Flat-track bully currently out of whatever international form he ever had

Frank Lampard, the GRAHAM HICK of English Football

 

[Easy 10]

They would if they played NOW, yes, Had they played 4 years ago, Turkey would have RAPED Croatia. It's hard to compare, because all four teams (Turkey 02, England 02, England 06, and Croatia 06) are totally different, but I am just pointing out that Sven did come across something remotely challenging in his qualifying years. Put it like this, McLaren's England wouldn't get a result in Turkey if we played them tomorrow.

Bearing in mind McLaren tonight was deprived of Gerrard, Hargreaves and Owen (who can all be considered key players, and very much part of the spine to the team), we were always on a hiding to nothing in Zagreb tonight.

If Sven was in charge, he'd have picked a 14 year old from Ipswich to play up front, before f***ing the bird who sang the national anthems up the arse, and then seeing if he could buy Bolton Wanderers off an asian programme seller outside the ground.

 

[Bry Nylon]

If Sven was in charge, he'd have picked a 14 year old from Ipswich to play up front, before f***ing the bird who sang the national anthems up the arse, and then seeing if he could buy Bolton Wanderers off an asian programme seller outside the ground.

You're right. I'm beginning to miss the old Swedish twat already.

 

[Nemesis]

Can't be arsed to read all this.
We'd have lost 6-0 under Erikssssssson.

We'd have lost at least 6-0 under McClaren tonight , were it not for a string of saves by Robinson.

He's forgiven for the howler-his saves more than make up for one mistake.

 

[Man of Harveys]

So, have I understood this correctly: Sven is complete crap and should have been sacked years and years ago, according to a press and a baying mob who never quite got their heads around the idea of a foreign coach anyway. That's what happens when pragmatism hits nationalism head on, like matter and anti-matter.

Anyway, eventually Sven goes and, despite other decent foreign managers appearing available, an Englishman IS appointed who many still don't fancy. England then actually get WORSE under the Englishman, yet the only argument those who were baying for Sven's head can say is "well, it would have been EVEN worse under Sven" - even though, in fact, his qualifying record was excellent?!?!


Honestly. Get a grip - this is pure tragicomedy.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So, have I understood this correctly: Sven is complete crap and should have been sacked years and years ago, according to a press and a baying mob who never quite got their heads around the idea of a foreign coach anyway. That's what happens when pragmatism hits nationalism head on, like matter and anti-matter.

Anyway, eventually Sven goes and, despite other decent foreign managers appearing available, an Englishman IS appointed who many still don't fancy. England seem worse under the Englishman, yet the only argument those who were baying for Sven's head can say is "well, it would have been EVEN worse under Sven", even though his qualifying record was excellent?!?!


Honestly. Get a grip - this is pure tragicomedy.

McLaren has lost one game, away to Croatia who looked a more than decent side. Sven got us qualified albiet he lost away to Northern Ireland who at the time were not much more than a pub team. The jury's out for me - McLarens had one shocker that he now has 5 months to reflect on and sort out.

Calling for the managers head after one bad result and asking for the previous incumbent to be reinstated is exactly the sort of tabloid knee jerk reaction you normally (rightfully) complain about.

 

[Man of Harveys]

McLaren has lost one game, away to Croatia who looked a more than decent side. Sven got us qualified albiet he lost away to Northern Ireland who at the time were not much more than a pub team. The jury's out for me - McLarens had one shocker that he now has 5 months to reflect on and sort out.

Calling for the managers head after one bad result and asking for the previous incumbent to be reinstated is exactly the sort of tabloid knee jerk reaction you normally (rightfully) complain about.

Yup, you're right - for what little it's worth, I don't think Maclaren should go, incidentally - blimey, it's far, far too early for that. But this constant Fleet Street-sourced bleating about Sven - often, as with McGhee, featuring the use of terms like "well, how much worse could things be?" - was always going to lead to big trouble.

Thank God I'm not a 100% dedicated England fan - I think this clash between sports editors who cannot get their head around the idea of foreign managers and the reality of wanting the best person for the job needs to be nailed head-on. Maclaren was NOT the best available manager to them, simple as.

This culture clash could be as damaging an issue as these overpaid prima donna players who think they're better than they are.

 

[Sid James]

I think this clash between sports editors who cannot get their head around the idea of foreign managers and the reality of wanting the best person for the job needs to be nailed head-on. Maclaren was NOT the best available manager to them, simple as.

Agree totally that it is a problem, but is this not just the press reflecting the wider opinion. It certainly appears a divisive issue on this board alone.

 

[Man of Harveys]

Agree totally that it is a problem, but is this not just the press reflecting the wider opinion. It certainly appears a divisive issue on this board alone.

Nah, I know what you mean and I've had this conversation a lot before (it was a perennial fave when I was doing my journalism training years ago, for example) - I'm sadly convinced that a lot of people will be convinced by an opinion emenating from the press. It's very hard not to be. Of course, a load of people do think for themselves, hence the division on here that you mention.

If you could assume, for example, that most people are issue-neutral on something before the press picks up on a topic, like, say, should England have a foreign manager. Then, well-established, well-paid journalists with a load of access to those within the game, start saying on a daily basis how terrible having a foreign England manager would be, probably in order to appeal to their owners, who know that jingoism is an eternally-useful fall-back option.

You need a lot of independence of thought to contradict that. The fact that a great many don't really care on here is, of course, a tribute to the GREAT independence of thought of NSCers.

 

[Sid James]

True, 'exploiting a wider opinion' would have been a better way to put it. The pre-disposition toward a viewpoint still has to exist I think.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Nah, I know what you mean and I've had this conversation a lot before (it was a perennial fave when I was doing my journalism training years ago, for example) - I'm sadly convinced that a lot of people will be convinced essentially by a of opinion emenating from the press. It's very hard not to be. Of course, a load of people do, hence the division on here that you mention.

If you could assume, for example, that most people are issue-neutral on something before the press picks up on a topic, like, say, should England have a foreign manager. Then, well-established, well-paid journalists with a load of access to those within the game, start saying on a daily basis how terrible having a foreign England manager would be, probably in order to appeal to their owners, who know that jingoism is an eternally-useful fall-back option.

You need a lot of independence of thought to contradict that. The fact that a great many don't really care on here is, of course, a tribute to the GREAT independence of thought of NSCers.

Harvs, you completely contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim the press have a huge influence on opinion. I actually don't agree with that, at least not to the extent you're saying. And in any case, until the summer the Sven debate was far from one-sided in the press, and many so-called 'big-name' journalists also came out in favour of a Hiddink or a Scolari rather than a McClaren or an Allardyce.

Yet you then seem to say that the only haven from this influence, if it indeed exists, is, err, on this board, where true independence of thought flourishes.

I mean, I think this board is great at times as well, but what are the chances of us being the nation's only free thinkers?

 

[Man of Harveys]

Harvs, you completely contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim the press have a huge influence on opinion. I actually don't agree with that, at least not to the extent you're saying. And in any case, until the summer the Sven debate was far from one-sided in the press, and many so-called 'big-name' journalists also came out in favour of a Hiddink or a Scolari rather than a McClaren or an Allardyce.

Yet you then seem to say that the only haven from this influence, if it indeed exists, is, err, on this board, where true independence of thought flourishes.

I mean, I think this board is great at times as well, but what are the chances of us being the nation's only free thinkers?

I honestly don't think it's contradictory (the NSC thing was a bit of joke). Of course journalists don't stand there and admit "yeah, well we do try and influence the gullible masses whenever possible because the boss likes it" - if nothing else, that would be giving the game away. Then they go away and carry on - very cleverly and subtly, mostly - chipping away at why it HAS to be an Englishman in charge etc etc.

I think the reason why not everyone is totally susceptible to this is a) there are a few who don't read that section of the press which bangs this particular drum the loudest, b) as you say, some press don't go on against foreign managers and most c) there are, I imagine plenty of fans who, despite what they read, don't care who's charge as long as England do well.

So - how would the good folk of NSC react to Jurgen Klinsmann managing England? That'd make a few choke on their cornflakes.

 

[Tooting Gull]

I actually think the problem is more acute even than just slagging off foreign managers. I think it's all England managers that are targeted, editors believe it sells papers, and it's not a particularly edifying aspect of the whole business.

If they happen to be foreign, then that is the stick used. If they are English, there will be another one. Too linked to Sven, not enough silverware with clubs, tactically naive - the list goes on.

I would also take issue with the idea that it is only the tabloids who feed this. Some of the most vitriolic anti-Sven stuff came from the supposedly 'respectable' Times guys, just dressed up in a marginally more civilised way and with slightly calmer headlines.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I would also take issue with the idea that it is only the tabloids who feed this. Some of the most vitriolic anti-Sven stuff came from the supposedly 'respectable' Times guys, just dressed up in a marginally more civilised way and with slightly calmer headlines.

I can well imagine; I certainly didn't just have the tabs in mind with this.

Wasn't Gary Lineker's brilliantly incisive take on things that Phil Scolari was unsuitable because of a "different footballing culture" between Brazil and England - so in Lineker's eyes, there's no way presumably this mysterious exotic brew of samba football on the beach and, erm winning international football tournaments occasionally, would work here. All barely thought-out patronising crap, of course.

 

[Gritt23]

I was a Sven-basher, he was completely unable to get the best out of a good crop of players. I stand by my criticisms of the man.

I wasn't in favour of McLaren getting the job, but I did want a domestic appointment. International football, for me, is all about pitting the best you have got against the best another country has got, and you see who comes out the better. In the FA's opinion that is McLaren, and in his opinion it was the players who ran out last night. When pitted against the best Croatia (plus 1 Brazilian) we were proved to be inferior.

I can deal with that. We are not as good as Croatia, there I've said it. Maybe, just maybe, some of our players are not as good as the hype.

 

[Chesney Christ]

who's a star player for any of the teams you're talking about?!?

Clearly most of these players are carried at club level - especially rubbish Lampard who most Chelsea fans I know want him dropped from the Chelsea team as well as England.

If we have so many GREAT players how come 2 respected managers (add venables into the mix) can only manage about 1 good performance in 6?

Carried? You're an idiot.

What a load of nonsense. Ferdinand is one of the "star players" at United, and is the lynchpin of the defence. Hardly carried. Lampard and Terry are the first names on the team sheet for Chelsea every week without fail, despite all the international stars there.

Ashley Cole may be a "****" but is still one of the best left-backs in the world.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I was a Sven-basher, he was completely unable to get the best out of a good crop of players. I stand by my criticisms of the man.

I wasn't in favour of McLaren getting the job, but I did want a domestic appointment. International football, for me, is all about pitting the best you have got against the best another country has got, and you see who comes out the better. In the FA's opinion that is McLaren, and in his opinion it was the players who ran out last night. When pitted against the best Croatia (plus 1 Brazilian) we were proved to be inferior.

I can deal with that. We are not as good as Croatia, there I've said it. Maybe, just maybe, some of our players are not as good as the hype.

Fair enough. Can I just check something (and I realise this is hypothetical - sadly, the choice isn't this straight forward): you'd be satisfied with England being mediocre but having nothing but pure Englishmen people involved and would prefer that to England winning the World Cup in South Africa or elsewhere - but with a foreign manager in charge? Again, both are valid points of view (I think...).

 

[Chesney Christ]

Gerrard: Show Pony

Oh go away.

Last year he was voted 2nd behind Ronaldinho in European Footballer of the Year by his FELLOW PLAYERS i.e. World Class Internationals: people who know a thing or two more about football than you or I. The year before that he was voted MVP (Most Valuable Player) in the Champions League by his fellow pro's. Again, world class internationals who know the game.

In a Liverpool shirt, he is one of the best players in Europe. For England, he's average.