[Politics] Immigration detention centres

chickens · Nov 2, 2022

Pondicherry said:
Fundamentally it is not sustainable to have a system which enables everyone to choose which country they want to live in because naturally the majority will gravitate to the counties that will benefit them the most. The real answer is to improve the conditions in counties that people are leaving. This is not easy as this will often involve political change. In short, I don't think there is a solution here.

The problem is that the alternative to taking in refugees is diplomatic hostility and actively sanctioning (or worse) any regime that isn’t sufficiently policed or acts in a manner that discriminates against sections of its society.

The upshot is potentially hugely unpopular and expensive wars, leading to loss of life and far greater expense than taking in refugees.

If we want to “fix” every nation that doesn’t share our values, well that sounds a lot like empire to me.

Fancy war against Saudi Arabia? Qatar? Russia? Iran? until they all “mend their ways”?

They say politics is the art of the possible. Offering people a way out of their misery may be the only sensible option on the table. Not ideal, but possible.

jcdenton08 · Nov 2, 2022

chickens said:
They say politics is the art of the possible. Offering people a way out of their misery may be the only sensible option on the table. Not ideal, but possible.

How many people? All the people? From every country with a worse GDP than ours?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 2, 2022

jcdenton08 said:
How many people? All the people? From every country with a worse GDP than ours?

All the ones we invaded over the last four hundred years.

In fact, after WW2, we asked them to come and help rebuild Britain, as long as they took menial jobs, like working on the Tube, or bus conductors.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 2, 2022

It’s good to see a demonstration at Manston this evening in support of the migrants.

chickens · Nov 2, 2022

jcdenton08 said:
How many people? All the people? From every country with a worse GDP than ours?

We take a small proportion of the world’s refugees. We’re attractive to those who speak English and those who have people already here. We also have people who have been trafficked here illegally and are trying to escape their captors. Are you suggesting that those in a situation of slavery should continue to be so without troubling the state? Is hidden slavery more palatable to you than public refugee status?

Personally I would advocate hugely tightened financial regulation and that all our trade deals should be weighted heavily towards states with good rule of law, shared values and human rights records, and heavily against states with a history of persecution or international organized crime. This would inevitably lead to a highly diminished City of London (we enable a lot of international money laundering at arms length) but would stop rewarding those who don’t have their own house in order.

The trick to reducing refugee numbers is to have far fewer nation states where life is unbearable for a significant number of its citizens.

A1X · Nov 2, 2022

I wonder how many of those who dislike the number of refugees arriving also demand foreign aid be cut? Or turn a blind eye to the selling of weapons to nations which choose to wage war against their neighbours (and no, I don’t mean Russia / Ukraine)? Or refuse to take the issue of climate change seriously? Or shilled hard for Brexit?

Because those are all major factors in where we are. And the flow isn’t going to stop. We can keep herding them into concentration camps in Kent and dehumanising them in the hope of discouraging others if you want, but it won’t work and simply makes us all look bad.

worthingseagull123 · Nov 2, 2022

Swansman said:
You do often get granted refugee status however if the economic situation in the country (combined with the fact that Albania is run by criminal gangs) puts you in severe risk of danger - for women, mainly trafficking and for men you're either become a part of the drugconomy or you'll be viewed as a burden by those who have lots of (violent) power.

Possibly, but it would depend on where you are from, whether there is sufficiency of protection from the authorities, whether internal relocation is viable and whether a person would form membership of a particular social group under the 1951 convention.

An Albanian woman could well argue this and get refugee status. An Indian or Chinese national however could not argue this and would not get International Protection.

worthingseagull123 · Nov 2, 2022

A1X said:
I wonder how many of those who dislike the number of refugees arriving also demand foreign aid be cut? Or turn a blind eye to the selling of weapons to nations which choose to wage war against their neighbours (and no, I don’t mean Russia / Ukraine)? Or refuse to take the issue of climate change seriously? Or shilled hard for Brexit?

Because those are all major factors in where we are. And the flow isn’t going to stop. We can keep herding them into concentration camps in Kent and dehumanising them in the hope of discouraging others if you want, but it won’t work and simply makes us all look bad.

But hotel space and social housing will run out.

Where do we accommodate people? We are not going to suddenly build hundreds of thousands of new houses in the next five years. Public spending is going to go down whilst taxes are going to go up.

And we aren’t going to confiscate private property to lump in asylum seekers. CPO’s can take months if not years.

jcdenton08 · Nov 2, 2022

worthingseagull123 said:
But hotel space and social housing will run out.

Where do we accommodate people? We are not going to suddenly build hundreds of thousands of new houses in the next five years. Public spending is going to go down whilst taxes are going to go up.

And we aren’t going to confiscate private property to lump in asylum seekers. CPO’s can take months if not years.

And even if the government could/did do that, then what? Thousands more because now you get a free house.

ManOfSussex · Nov 2, 2022

Reading all the right wing, Brexit backing, Tory voters on this thread it seems clear when it comes to the migrant crisis (like everything else) it's not their fault because they're the ignorant victim. Again.

Never would have guessed that.

portlock seagull · Nov 3, 2022

A1X said:
I wonder how many of those who dislike the number of refugees arriving also demand foreign aid be cut? Or turn a blind eye to the selling of weapons to nations which choose to wage war against their neighbours (and no, I don’t mean Russia / Ukraine)? Or refuse to take the issue of climate change seriously? Or shilled hard for Brexit?

Because those are all major factors in where we are. And the flow isn’t going to stop. We can keep herding them into concentration camps in Kent and dehumanising them in the hope of discouraging others if you want, but it won’t work and simply makes us all look bad.

This, as I see it too. Even if you believe we can’t cope now, there are millions (millions!) more to come mark my words. We simply have to do better. End of. The alternative will be anarchy and mass civil disorder. That will affect all the rich, tax evaders too who are currently planning their winter vacation and whether to take Nanny too! People need to wake up to the humanitarian disaster that is climate change and wars. It’s on our doorsteps now and we must manage better or it will literally come into your house soon enough. Desperate people do desperate things and multiplied by many thousands of young men who feel they’ve nothing to lose…It’s all so predictable that’s the sorry part. Many many people been saying for years what’s now unfolding and will continue to worsen, exacerbated by successively weak governments with no sign of that changing soon.

Baldseagull · Nov 3, 2022

The sad truth is we can't afford to keep giving these people somewhere to live, they add nothing of value to our country, they just take whatever they can, most are purely driven by economic self interest. A few are deserving and should be given somewhere to live at the tax payers expense, but the vast majority are just a blight on our country, they need to see that they are not welcome here. But for some reason, we keep voting these vile Tory politicians into Parliament, and paying for their second homes in London, paying expenses for their taxis and first class rail travel between the HoP and it's subsidised bars and canteens, to their meetings with CEO's of big corporations wanting a tax break for the price of a meal at The Ivy. They all need to be kicked out, we can't afford the f***ing Tories a minute longer.
It might sound harsh, but if we just sent a few to Rwanda, or detention centres, just the ones that recommended their mates for large covid related contracts, met secretly with foreign Governments, got caught shagging their assistants, fiddled their expenses, lied to Parliament, etc. and created a hostile environment for self serving, law breaking, lying, corrupt and deceitful politicians, it might deter more like them from seeking election.

nicko31 · Nov 3, 2022

Interesting we're 19th in Europe of terms of asylum per capita

Cyprus is the highest.

amexer · Nov 3, 2022

do people on here think the 10k single Albanian men should be allowed to stay.

The Clamp · Nov 3, 2022

Baldseagull said:
The sad truth is we can't afford to keep giving these people somewhere to live, they add nothing of value to our country, they just take whatever they can, most are purely driven by economic self interest. A few are deserving and should be given somewhere to live at the tax payers expense, but the vast majority are just a blight on our country, they need to see that they are not welcome here. But for some reason, we keep voting these vile Tory politicians into Parliament, and paying for their second homes in London, paying expenses for their taxis and first class rail travel between the HoP and it's subsidised bars and canteens, to their meetings with CEO's of big corporations wanting a tax break for the price of a meal at The Ivy. They all need to be kicked out, we can't afford the f***ing Tories a minute longer.
It might sound harsh, but if we just sent a few to Rwanda, or detention centres, just the ones that recommended their mates for large covid related contracts, met secretly with foreign Governments, got caught shagging their assistants, fiddled their expenses, lied to Parliament, etc. and created a hostile environment for self serving, law breaking, lying, corrupt and deceitful politicians, it might deter more like them from seeking election.

Re-read. I was whooshed!

nicko31 · Nov 3, 2022

amexer said:
do people on here think the 10k single Albanian men should be allowed to stay.

Not if they are not legitimate asylum seekers, maybe we'd be better to set up a system in Albania to help fill out labour shortage. Those with skills can apply this way

The Clamp · Nov 3, 2022

amexer said:
Just read in last year 12k Albanian men (10k of which were young and single ) against 50 last year. Surely most of these are returned Isn't Albania a peaceful country

Do you have sources for these figures?

And war is not the only reason people seek asylum.

86% of Albanian refugees are granted asylum. The vast majority of which are trafficked women and girls. Young, single and in desperate need of rescuing .

I posted my source a few pages back.

The Clamp · Nov 3, 2022

Manston asylum centre not operating legally, concedes minister

Immigration minister says legal action has begun on behalf of some detainees in Kent processing centre

www.theguardian.com

Good. The Tory’s treat refugees awaiting asylum decisions appallingly.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 3, 2022

amexer said:
do people on here think the 10k single Albanian men should be allowed to stay.

They need to be processed, and there’s no indication they are all men/boys.
War isn’t the only motivation for fleeing a country. The naysayers will say economy is, but as rightly pointed out, it costs money to cross the Channel.
Each case should be judged on merit, and the Home Office isn’t processing the cases quickly enough. Some Albanians have been deported this year.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 3, 2022

Baldseagull said:
The sad truth is we can't afford to keep giving these people somewhere to live, they add nothing of value to our country, they just take whatever they can, most are purely driven by economic self interest. A few are deserving and should be given somewhere to live at the tax payers expense, but the vast majority are just a blight on our country, they need to see that they are not welcome here. But for some reason, we keep voting these vile Tory politicians into Parliament, and paying for their second homes in London, paying expenses for their taxis and first class rail travel between the HoP and it's subsidised bars and canteens, to their meetings with CEO's of big corporations wanting a tax break for the price of a meal at The Ivy. They all need to be kicked out, we can't afford the f***ing Tories a minute longer.
It might sound harsh, but if we just sent a few to Rwanda, or detention centres, just the ones that recommended their mates for large covid related contracts, met secretly with foreign Governments, got caught shagging their assistants, fiddled their expenses, lied to Parliament, etc. and created a hostile environment for self serving, law breaking, lying, corrupt and deceitful politicians, it might deter more like them from seeking election.

I think you're right. But I think we have no idea what to do and so will do next to nothing, change next to nothing, will occasionally launch glittering and foolish initiatives like Rwanda, and get nowhere.

I was listening on the radio this morning to an inquiry which has blamed the fire service for inactivity at the start of the Manchester bombing for the needless death of some victims. And yet, the failure was anticipated because they had rehearsed a bomb event a year before and the same failure of swift action occurred. But nothing was done to fix this because nobody 'owned' it.

Nobody 'owns' illegal immigration in the UK. The oaf Braverman had the cheek, the other day to bleat that the failing had to stop. Who had been in charge these last 12 years?

Nothing will change, because we have moved too far away from a place where change can be made. Gun boats on the channel and genocide would work, if we could get sufficient gun boats together (we probably sold them all to the Argentinians 10 years ago). But nobody wants that. Not even Farrage.

Oh, and by the way, the recent focus on Albanian gangs - these account for 15% of illegal immigrants apparently. They are here primarily to set up criminal enterprises in the UK, as @Swansman explained recently. The trafficking comes from France and is run by people there. The French no longer care or bother doing much because we stuck two fingers up at them when we jolly well left the EU. Fancy that!

Albeit vigilantism will happen. Was that not the cause of the recent fire bombing that triggered the latest crisis? Some sort of das reich type who kindly killed himself after his tomfoolery? Ah, yes....

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[Politics] Immigration detention centres

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