Dear spain

[Buzzer]

This sort of thing really amuses me. There has NEVER been a majority in favour of Catalan independence. There may be now, nobody will know unless there is a plebiscite, however it's far from certain what the result would be.

That, however, is the current situation. Are you trying to say that currently Catalans are somehow repressed by the Spanish state? Surely not. If you are then it's risible.

In fact, the Catalan independence movement is of itself jingoistic, and whilst it covers the whole political spectrum, the current call for self-determination is being led by the majority centre-right Catalan nationalists, just like the emergence of Catalan nationalism was led by the political right at the beginning of the 20th century. Let's not even get into the dark secrets of the roots of Basque nationalism.

I'm all in favour of self-determination, however Spain has a loose federalist constitution and the Catalans already have a great deal of autonomy. Trying to link the situation in Gibraltar to the situation in Catalonia, though, is as bizarre as attempting to link the current party in government in Spain with a military dictatorship that ended 40 years ago.

You must be joking. Surely, you tell me you are joking. Catalonia has ALWAYS had a majority in favour of independence. It was why the civil war was so fiercely fought and the call for self-determination is as strong now as it was back then. Only last year there was a demonstration of between 1.5 and 2 MILLION Catalans calling for independence and was supported by all colours of the political spectrum in Catalonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Catalan_independence_demonstration

The current Spanish Government milks Catalonia because it is the richest region and that's why there is no response to these calls for independence. They pay an extra 20 billion euros to Madrid than they get back and are the only region that is made to pay prescription charges.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/20/readers-panel-independent-catalonia-spain

There is no autonomy because Madrid has the veto on each and every piece of legislation that the Catalan 'government' passes. All they want is self-determination. That is a million miles away from "jingoism". They have their own language, culture, historically they were an independent state and the desire for self-rule is extremely strong. They should be allowed the right to decide their own future.

Catalan 'nationalism? It WAS a nation up until the treaty of Utrecht. The French then suppressed the language and Franco went further and killed hundreds of thousands. He sent my girlfriend's grandfather to a Nazi slave labour camp in Austria. They never heard from him again.

If you like, I could put you in touch with a couple of Catalans living in Brighton who could put you right on a fair few things you've stated.

 

[Hillian1]

Have you had a reply from Spain yet? What did they say?

I may have done, I'm not sure really.

I have severed all links to Spain and am refusing to enter into dialogue with them unless through a mediator, thus far Germany, France, and Belgium have refused stating they don't want to get involved. Only the Falklands have agreed but that may make things worse.

 

[gordonchas]

You must be joking. Surely, you tell me you are joking...

As this is a thread about Gibraltar I don't want to take it completely off-topic, but I'm not joking, and you are entirely wrong.

In Catalonia (as in all the other autonomous Spanish regions) there is a great deal of dual-identification, however even now, with interest at its peak in Catalonia, less than 30% (29.3) of the population consider themselves to be "only Catalan". That figure was 14% in 2008 and less than 10% during the 1990s. So to claim that the region has always been in favour of independence is completely false. Even Macia's famous statue during the 2nd Republic referred to Catalonia as an autonomous state within the Spanish republic.

Why has that figure jumped so dramatically? You alluded to the reason, it is entirely economic. Catalonia is the richest region and also the most heavily indebted. Cultural reasons are therefore a poor second to purely pragmatic considerations which are the result of a serious recession - caused in no small part by regional government overspending. (Funny you mention prescription charges - I live in Valencia and I'm 100% sure I have to pay them as well).

 

[Hillian1]

Update.

Two Tornado GR4's just flew South over Burgess Hill, my campaign is gathering momentum.

 

[Nibble]

Dear spain,

I have just cancelled my holiday to you, I refuse to spend my hard earned money in a country that has decided to tax 50 Euros to cross the border from spain to Gibraltar.

I will not spend my money in a country who has decided to ban all flights over spanish airspace to Gibraltar.

I hope everyone who can, without losing money themselves, will do the same.

Your economy is reliant upon holidaymakers, a huge proportion of these holidaymakers are British.

Yours hoping you suffer badly,

Hillian

Dear Hillian,

Gutted mate.

Regards,

Espagnol.

 

[Nibble]

There is a debate on the whole issue on R2 at 12, first minister of Gibralter making an appearance.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There is a debate on the whole issue on R2 at 12, first minister of Gibralter making an appearance.

Wow. Whilst I don't agree with Hillian's boycott fair play to him for getting it on the BBC. It really is gaining momentum.

 

[Nibble]

Wow. Whilst I don't agree with Hillian's boycott fair play to him for getting it on the BBC. It really is gaining momentum.

It's a movement akin to Arab Spring.

 

[Buzzer]

As this is a thread about Gibraltar I don't want to take it completely off-topic, but I'm not joking, and you are entirely wrong.

In Catalonia (as in all the other autonomous Spanish regions) there is a great deal of dual-identification, however even now, with interest at its peak in Catalonia, less than 30% (29.3) of the population consider themselves to be "only Catalan". That figure was 14% in 2008 and less than 10% during the 1990s. So to claim that the region has always been in favour of independence is completely false. Even Macia's famous statue during the 2nd Republic referred to Catalonia as an autonomous state within the Spanish republic.

Why has that figure jumped so dramatically? You alluded to the reason, it is entirely economic. Catalonia is the richest region and also the most heavily indebted. Cultural reasons are therefore a poor second to purely pragmatic considerations which are the result of a serious recession - caused in no small part by regional government overspending. (Funny you mention prescription charges - I live in Valencia and I'm 100% sure I have to pay them as well).

They've brought in charges in the rest of Spain then, I see. Apologies I thought it was still only Catalonia. I will say though that every single Catalan government whether right or left that has taken office in the region has been pro-independence. It would suggest that Catalans have always supported independence. If though, the independence movement is not supported by the majority then Madrid has nothing to fear from giving them a referendum and I stand by my assertion that if the Spanish want to rip up the part of the treaty of Utrecht where they agreed to the British having Gibraltar it seems only fair to give Catalans the option to choose whether to remain a part of Spain or not under the same Treaty.

 

[somerset]

Interestingly, Spain continues to adopt the same pose as Argentina does with the Falklands, in that it will only discuss sovereignty with the UK, refusing to include representatives of Gibraltar's governing bodies, the people don't count then it seems, further illustrated by these border penalties and delays that citizens on both sides of the border are subjected to.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Interestingly, Spain continues to adopt the same pose as Argentina does with the Falklands, in that it will only discuss sovereignty with the UK, refusing to include representatives of Gibraltar's governing bodies, the people don't count then it seems, further illustrated by these border penalties and delays that citizens on both sides of the border are subjected to.

I read that Gib's representatives are included in all discussions at present but the current Government wants to change this.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

fuk-it, lets just have a war with them ....

 

[HovaGirl]

Gibraltar is largely full of ex-pats trying to avoid UK tax so can't say I'm too bothered.

But this tax is for the 10,000 Spanish who commute to work in Gibraltar every day, allegedly.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

(Funny you mention prescription charges - I live in Valencia and I'm 100% sure I have to pay them as well).

And here in Extremadura as well

 

[happygull]

Lots of countries charge fees to enter, don't they?

Wales do

 

[RandyWanger]

Saw this on FB earlier, thought some of you might enjoy it.

Hi Spain. Only me. I just google-mapped Gibraltar as I didn't really know where you kept it. And I couldn't help notice this little place just over the water called Ceuta. I think it's yours but you've actually left it in someone else's country and Wikipedia tell me that Morocco rather want it back. I'm not being funny, Spain, but is this the pot calling the kettle Moorish? Anyways, send my love to Portugal. Toodleoo. Px

 

[Chesney Christ]

Are Spain on NSC?

 

[Hillian1]

Are Spain on NSC?

Already done in post 2.

Try and keep up.

 

[HovaGirl]

Saw this on FB earlier, thought some of you might enjoy it.

Hi Spain. Only me. I just google-mapped Gibraltar as I didn't really know where you kept it. And I couldn't help notice this little place just over the water called Ceuta. I think it's yours but you've actually left it in someone else's country and Wikipedia tell me that Morocco rather want it back. I'm not being funny, Spain, but is this the pot calling the kettle Moorish? Anyways, send my love to Portugal. Toodleoo. Px
View attachment 45741

Very good!

 

[Footsoldier]

Dear spain,

I have just cancelled my holiday to you, I refuse to spend my hard earned money in a country that has decided to tax 50 Euros to cross the border from spain to Gibraltar.

I will not spend my money in a country who has decided to ban all flights over spanish airspace to Gibraltar.

I hope everyone who can, without losing money themselves, will do the same.

Your economy is reliant upon holidaymakers, a huge proportion of these holidaymakers are British.

Yours hoping you suffer badly,

Hillian

Funny isn't it? We sent our soldiers into ilgeal wars that has nothing to do with us then stay total silence when a country takes liberties with us against it's own citizens.

Now is the time to send in troops to protect british instead of muslims.