[Misc] Electric Cars

[GOM]

I don't see what the problem is – technology evolves all the time and I know for a fact that the AA now has a healthy fleet of vans to help people who run out of charge at the roadside, alongside the ones that help people sort their ICE cars out when they misfuel. Having spoken to Edmund King, the AA's president (who has a Porsche Taycan EV as his daily driver), a few times over the years, he doesn't seemed phased about the transition to EV and is happy to support it.

There's also the fact that EVs have fewer moving parts and components to go wrong, so there should be fewer breakdowns anyway. Electronics might put spanners in the works, but that's not an issue that just affects EVs.

I work in the industry and meant to watch that programme last night, but I caught the last few minutes and probably won't bother. One of the statements was along the lines of "We were all promised a dream driving experiences, but that might not be the case." WHAT? Who said that and when? Because anyone who is involved with EVs – either manufacturers, journalists, drivers, fleets, whoever – realise that it's a slow process that will have challenges along the way. If that snippet was an insight to the standard of the rest of the programme, I'm out. And don't get me started on Erin bloody Baker!

Don't bother watching the program so full of untruths and opinions it will make you angry. e.g. the question "if you're in the middle of nowhere and you break down, what are you going to do?" - what the hell has that got to do with an EV ?

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Don't bother watching the program so full of untruths and opinions it will make you angry. e.g. the question "if you're in the middle of nowhere and you break down, what are you going to do?" - what the hell has that got to do with an EV ?

Honestly, I reckon it was on for about 30 seconds before I scoffed at something that was said. Horrendous.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

I watched the programme last night and the way it started, I thought it was going to be an attack on EVs.

It was actually more balanced than I thought it would be (especially for something on C5). For example, while they highlighted the depreciation of new EVs they also highlighted than buying a used one is good value. They also had a specialist talking about the fears of battery degradation and that they now found with the newer batteries it was even less of an issue that the manufacturers were predicting

Charging was another one where it started off talking about the high cost of public charging and the inequality of those people who cannot have home chargers but finished by talking about the savings against ICE that you get if you can do the majority of your charging at home.

Overall, like many things, you need to make the decision that is right for you - the guy complaining about the cost of public charging as he couldn't have a home charger should really have done his homework before buying the car. Even then, it had a happy ending as the council have now agreed he can have a charger (no doubt helped by a C5 TV programme being made).

 

[chickens]

Ah, you haven't googled 'can an EV be towed''? Teslas and Nissan Leaf can in tow mode; the rest can't, and need a flatbed tow truck instead. Or membership of the AA with an automatic fold down trailer.

I’m sorry but all these vehicles have a neutral, there’s absolutely a risk of damage if you leave a vehicle in drive and tow as the movement will generate electricity that could then cause damage to the motors, but Hyundai’s have a neutral, as does my MG. I’ve not seen an EV that doesn’t have neutral.

Edit: Having investigated more, there could potentially be an issue if both the HV battery (for drive) AND the 12V battery (for the electronics) were both dead simultaneously, as you wouldn’t be able to switch the vehicle into neutral to disengage the electronic parking brake.

However, this isn’t an EV issue, as almost all modern petrol/diesel cars also have electronic parking brakes. So you would be equally fecked if it came to your petrol/diesel 12V battery went flat and the vehicle needed towing.

Every EV and combustion engine car I’ve searched for so far on YouTube has a manner of disengaging the electronic parking brake. Which makes sense, as the people making EVs also make combustion engine vehicles, and wouldn’t have been coming across this for the first time.

 

[nicko31]

I thought it was all EVs but obvs and wouldn't be the first time, I could be wrong! I know for Teslas too that's the advice - trailer rather than tow.

With EV's its all work in progress. Every year things get better and better and cheaper.

We're moving from an era of petro states to electro states.

 

[Eric the meek]

I watched the programme last night and the way it started, I thought it was going to be an attack on EVs.

It was actually more balanced than I thought it would be (especially for something on C5). For example, while they highlighted the depreciation of new EVs they also highlighted than buying a used one is good value. They also had a specialist talking about the fears of battery degradation and that they now found with the newer batteries it was even less of an issue that the manufacturers were predicting

Charging was another one where it started off talking about the high cost of public charging and the inequality of those people who cannot have home chargers but finished by talking about the savings against ICE that you get if you can do the majority of your charging at home.

Overall, like many things, you need to make the decision that is right for you - the guy complaining about the cost of public charging as he couldn't have a home charger should really have done his homework before buying the car. Even then, it had a happy ending as the council have now agreed he can have a charger (no doubt helped by a C5 TV programme being made).

Well said. I thought the programme was a lot more balanced than a couple of comments on here would suggest.

Maybe it was a bit unfair of them to feature the bloke who bought a Fisker Ocean for £65,000, before Fisker went bust, and his car dropped in value to maybe £20,000. That could have happened to any car and any company.

It is human nature for people to justify their own purchasing decisions, but trying to trash the programme before they've seen it, is I feel, unwise.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Well said. I thought the programme was a lot more balanced than a couple of comments on here would suggest.

Maybe it was a bit unfair of them to feature the bloke who bought a Fisker Ocean for £65,000, before Fisker went bust, and his car dropped in value to maybe £20,000. That could have happened to any car and any company.

It is human nature for people to justify their own purchasing decisions, but trying to trash the programme before they've seen it, is I feel, unwise.

It really couldn't. Fisker – including founder Henrik Fisker and his wife – is a very special case. The company was doomed the first time around and it was destined to go the same way when it was revived.

Shame, because the Ocean is a decent enough car. But quirky as anything – too much for the mass market.

Maybe I'll give it another go – and I'll admit that it probably doesn't help that I'm too close to all this stuff, so I'm clearly not the target audience – but won't hold my breath on the brief first impressions!

 

[Eric the meek]

It really couldn't. Fisker – including founder Henrik Fisker and his wife – is a very special case. The company was doomed the first time around and it was destined to go the same way when it was revived.

Shame, because the Ocean is a decent enough car. But quirky as anything – too much for the mass market.

Maybe I'll give it another go – and I'll admit that it probably doesn't help that I'm too close to all this stuff, so I'm clearly not the target audience – but won't hold my breath on the brief first impressions!

Have you heard the following about a non-mainstream EV manufacturer (no names)? I watched a Youtube video by a car reviewer who claimed that the manufacturer was offering reviewers £5000 to £7000 for a weekend's work (I think a series of tests and challenges) to 'review' their car? There was a promise of further work if the company considered their work was suitable.

Sure enough, a little later, these 'reviews' from other reviewers appeared on Youtube. Unsurprisingly, the car got great reviews!

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Have you heard the following about a non-mainstream EV manufacturer (no names)? I watched a Youtube video by a car reviewer who claimed that the manufacturer was offering reviewers £5000 to £7000 for a weekend's work (I think a series of tests and challenges) to 'review' their car? There was a promise of further work if the company considered their work was suitable.

Sure enough, a little later, these 'reviews' from other reviewers appeared on Youtube. Unsurprisingly, the car got great reviews!

Yeah, of course! That happens all the time. I've seen the video and it happens all the time. Influences are all over the place on launches and events.

It's a complete non-story. To the point that it's not even worth naming the manufacturer because they ALL do it. It also wasn't quite how it was portrayed in that video, either.

Edit, in this instance it wasn't an EV manufacturer, either. It MAKES and sells EVs, but ICE and hybrids, too...

 

[Eric the meek]

Yeah, of course! That happens all the time. I've seen the video and it happens all the time. Influences are all over the place on launches and events.

It's a complete non-story. To the point that it's not even worth naming the manufacturer because they ALL do it. It also wasn't quite how it was portrayed in that video, either.

Edit, in this instance it wasn't an EV manufacturer, either. It MAKES and sells EVs, but ICE and hybrids, too...

If it happens all the time, then that isn't a good look for the industry is it?

How can potential customers of EVs (or ICE or hybrids) be confident that a review they read, is genuinely independent and objective?

Does such a thing actually exist?

 

[chickens]

If it happens all the time, then that isn't a good look for the industry is it?

How can potential customers of EVs (or ICE or hybrids) be confident that a review they read, is genuinely independent and objective?

Does such a thing actually exist?

Let’s put it like this, if something is dreadful, it won’t get reviewed favourably as it would damage the reviewing publication’s reputation.

However, I wouldn’t buy a car without test-driving, ever. You can be fairly confident that a vehicle that has across the board favourable reviews will be competent. However, I’ve sat in vehicles that reviewers have raved about and thought “meh” - and been really pleasantly surprised by vehicles that reviewers have given a lukewarm reception to.

Use reviews to identify potential lemons, and a lot of the rest is down to personal taste imo. That’s across all vehicles, not powertrain specific.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

If it happens all the time, then that isn't a good look for the industry is it?

How can potential customers of EVs (or ICE or hybrids) be confident that a review they read, is genuinely independent and objective?

Does such a thing actually exist?

It happens all the time in EVERY industry. I'm talking about influencers, who the people in that video were (and Jonny Smith, whose review was probably more subjectve than the others) and who operate promoting anything and everything they are paid to.

In the case of the automotive world, it's pretty easy to spot the difference between an influencer and a proper motoring journalist in what they produce. I've heard from more than one manufacturer that when they've set up trips for influencers, the majority don't even have a driving licence, or have ever driven abroad (these dos are normally outside the UK). Whereas proper MoJos, who have been on the circuit for a long time, can assess vehicles properly and are more objective and critical, while still being fair (it's really not that difficult).

But this is nothing new, I joined the industry right at the end of the times of journalists getting lavish gifts on launches, but I was still accustomed to using private terminals and private jets for trips – and staying at luxury resorts while we were away. In fact, it was a semi urban myth that the better the blag, the worse the car! But none of that swayed my impressions or conclusions about a car. Nor would it have done for many of my peers.

If that peek behind the curtain was a bit TL;DR, then I would say to your questions:

It's not as black and white as that.

They can if it's from a credible outlet.

Yes.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Let’s put it like this, if something is dreadful, it won’t get reviewed favourably as it would damage the reviewing publication’s reputation.

However, I wouldn’t buy a car without test-driving, ever. You can be fairly confident that a vehicle that has across the board favourable reviews will be competent. However, I’ve sat in vehicles that reviewers have raved about and thought “meh” - and been really pleasantly surprised by vehicles that reviewers have given a lukewarm reception to.

Use reviews to identify potential lemons, and a lot of the rest is down to personal taste imo. That’s across all vehicles, not powertrain specific.

This is true and there is, of course, an element of subjectivity about cars. Which is why, when people ask me to recommend cars for them, I do so, but with the caveat that they should go and try them for themselves first. Funnilly enough – most people just ignore what we say and get what they were going to in the first place. Or something completely different to what they asked about

One funny thing used to be when the weeklies would rave about a new car from the international launch and claim it was the best thing ever, only to put it into a group test months later in the UK and then find it finished third or fourth out of four!

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

This is true and there is, of course, an element of subjectivity about cars. Which is why, when people ask me to recommend cars for them, I do so, but with the caveat that they should go and try them for themselves first. Funnilly enough – most people just ignore what we say and get what they were going to in the first place. Or something completely different to what they asked about

One funny thing used to be when the weeklies would rave about a new car from the international launch and claim it was the best thing ever, only to put it into a group test months later in the UK and then find it finished third or fourth out of four!

From my recent experience, I looked at a lot of reviews for a wide range of vehicles and I even asked you for some advice (which I didn't follow but was appreciated) but ultimately it was physically sitting in vehicles (many were too low for me) and seeing them in the flesh that made my decision.

My selection is one where the reviewers seemed to like the base vehicle but not the variant as a new vehicle because of the cost vs benefit but as a used buyer, many of those arguments were not as relevant. Nearly two weeks in, I am very happy with my choice (a Phoenix Orange Enyaq Coupe vRS) and it definitely stands out from many in an EV world which, in my personal opinion, has a lot of very capable but bland looking cars.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

From my recent experience, I looked at a lot of reviews for a wide range of vehicles and I even asked you for some advice (which I didn't follow but was appreciated) but ultimately it was physically sitting in vehicles (many were too low for me) and seeing them in the flesh that made my decision.

My selection is one where the reviewers seemed to like the base vehicle but not the variant as a new vehicle because of the cost vs benefit but as a used buyer, many of those arguments were not as relevant. Nearly two weeks in, I am very happy with my choice (a Phoenix Orange Enyaq Coupe vRS) and it definitely stands out from many in an EV world which, in my personal opinion, has a lot of very capable but bland looking cars.

I was having this conversation with a brand manager from a manufacturer just the other day. Colour-wise, everyone seems to WANT a whole load of choice, but the vast VAST majority, are black, white or some form of grey. He'd said that when he was at MINI, even the iconic British Racing Green cars only accounted for about 7% of sales.

That orange is a lovely shade – and a decent car for it to go on, too. I can't remember what I suggested, but I do love an Enyaq – and most Skodas to be fair.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Ah, you haven't googled 'can an EV be towed''? Teslas and Nissan Leaf can in tow mode; the rest can't, and need a flatbed tow truck instead. Or membership of the AA with an automatic fold down trailer.

My EV is neither a Tesla or a Nissan Leaf and yet it can be towed, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Worth noting that carts could be and can still be towed by horses. Not sure what that has to do with progress though.

 

[Eric the meek]

My EV is neither a Tesla or a Nissan Leaf and yet it can be towed, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Worth noting that carts could be and can still be towed by horses. Not sure what that has to do with progress though.

Congratulations. There are new EVs coming onto the market all the time. Perhaps the article below is out of date?

What happens if I break down in an electric car? - cinch

As an ever-increasing number of people buy electric vehicles, the more roadside assistance companies are needing to invest in the correct tools and training for their staff.

www.cinch.co.uk

'Some EVs (Teslas and Nissan Leafs) have a dedicated towing mode to make this process easier, but if not then it is best to load the car onto a flatbed truck, following the manufacturer’s guidance, and take it from there.'

 

[chickens]

Congratulations. There are new EVs coming onto the market all the time. Perhaps the article below is out of date?

What happens if I break down in an electric car? - cinch

As an ever-increasing number of people buy electric vehicles, the more roadside assistance companies are needing to invest in the correct tools and training for their staff.

www.cinch.co.uk

'Some EVs (Teslas and Nissan Leafs) have a dedicated towing mode to make this process easier, but if not then it is best to load the car onto a flatbed truck, following the manufacturer’s guidance, and take it from there.'

This is the line in the article that you’ve linked to that is baffling to me:

The reason you can’t simply tow an electric car is because there is no proper neutral gear.

I’ve never owned an electric car that didn’t have neutral. I don’t know of one that exists today that doesn’t have it.

It works differently on electric cars to combustion engine vehicles, since there’s no gearbox, so neutral doesn’t completely disengage the connection between power and the wheels, as there’s a permanent connection, but EV neutral cuts the motors, disables the electronic parking brake and allows the vehicle to be rolled or be pushed or pulled forward or backwards without any resistance either way.

It’s as neutral as you need to be able to be towed.

 

[Eric the meek]

This is the line in the article that you’ve linked to that is baffling to me:

The reason you can’t simply tow an electric car is because there is no proper neutral gear.

I’ve never owned an electric car that didn’t have neutral. I don’t know of one that exists today that doesn’t have it.

It works differently on electric cars to combustion engine vehicles, since there’s no gearbox, so neutral doesn’t completely disengage the connection between power and the wheels, as there’s a permanent connection, but EV neutral cuts the motors, disables the electronic parking brake and allows the vehicle to be rolled or be pushed or pulled forward or backwards without any resistance either way.

It’s as neutral as you need to be able to be towed.

Here's what AI says:

Yes, it is possible to tow with some electric vehicles (EVs), but not all models are designed or approved for it. EVs without a proper neutral gear cannot be towed on their wheels because doing so can damage the battery. If an EV needs to be moved, it's recommended to use a flatbed tow truck.

Here's a more detailed explanation:
Why some EVs cannot be towed:

• Lack of a true neutral gear:
  Unlike conventional vehicles, EVs don't have a true neutral gear. When an EV is moving, the wheels are connected to the motor, and rotating the wheels can generate electricity, which could damage the electrical system.
  
  
• • Towing can impact range:
    Towing adds weight and drag, which can significantly reduce an EV's battery range.
    
  • Type Approval:
    Many EV manufacturers don't seek type approval for towing, meaning the vehicle hasn't been formally tested and certified for towing.
    
  • Regenerative braking system:
    The regenerative braking system, which is designed to recover energy when decelerating, might be affected by towing, potentially disrupting the car's electronics.
    

Towing an EV safely:

• • Flatbed truck:
    The safest and most reliable way to move an EV when it can't drive is with a flatbed tow truck.
  • Jigger and dollies:
    If a flatbed truck isn't available, you can lift the front or rear wheels with a jigger and place the other wheels on dollies to avoid ground contact.
  • Neutral gear for short distances:
    During loading or adjustments, you can move the vehicle short distances (up to 10 meters at 5 km/h or less) with the shift position in neutral and the parking brake released.
    
    
    

 

[chickens]

Here's what AI says:

Yes, it is possible to tow with some electric vehicles (EVs), but not all models are designed or approved for it. EVs without a proper neutral gear cannot be towed on their wheels because doing so can damage the battery. If an EV needs to be moved, it's recommended to use a flatbed tow truck.

Here's a more detailed explanation:
Why some EVs cannot be towed:

• Lack of a true neutral gear:
  Unlike conventional vehicles, EVs don't have a true neutral gear. When an EV is moving, the wheels are connected to the motor, and rotating the wheels can generate electricity, which could damage the electrical system.
  
  
• • Towing can impact range:
    Towing adds weight and drag, which can significantly reduce an EV's battery range.
  • Type Approval:
    Many EV manufacturers don't seek type approval for towing, meaning the vehicle hasn't been formally tested and certified for towing.
  • Regenerative braking system:
    The regenerative braking system, which is designed to recover energy when decelerating, might be affected by towing, potentially disrupting the car's electronics.

Towing an EV safely:

• • Flatbed truck:
    The safest and most reliable way to move an EV when it can't drive is with a flatbed tow truck.
  • Jigger and dollies:
    If a flatbed truck isn't available, you can lift the front or rear wheels with a jigger and place the other wheels on dollies to avoid ground contact.
  • Neutral gear for short distances:
    During loading or adjustments, you can move the vehicle short distances (up to 10 meters at 5 km/h or less) with the shift position in neutral and the parking brake released.
    

Yet another reason why AI won’t take over the world any time soon. Most of your AI response deals with EV’s towing trailers/caravans etc.

I agree with AI that EV neutral is different to combustion engine neutral, there’s no gearbox, the motors are permanently connected to the wheels that they’re driving.

The EV’s “neutral” simply cuts power to the motors and ensures all four wheels are free to rotate.

It’s the wheels with motors on that you want to avoid towing along the ground, here it seems there is potential for damage to the motors. So, if you’ve a FWD vehicle, you want the front wheels off the ground, if you’ve a RWD vehicle, you want the rear wheels off the ground, and if you’ve got four-wheel drive, THEN you want a flatbed or dolly.

So flatbed will be appropriate for some EVs, but a long way from all. Just don’t flat tow them.