[News] Gender and biological sex

[BadFish]

Warning... essay incoming.

The idea that gender is "constructed" comes from the same philosophical background as "humans have a free will" and "you can become anything you want". Tropes from the 1900s, before modern data science proved that hard determinism is the truth. Give people similar genetics, environments and experiences and they will be very similar people making very similar choices.

Early social engineering showed women and men are different by nature. Naturally, genetical differences make people different even within genders etc, but there's natural gender differences that usually will be there and can only be altered through confusing information. As an example, early sources of nature-altering misinformation - such as religious texts - claims that sexual promiscuity among women is rare, immoral, sinful and unhealthy.

This may not be the average womans true, determined nature - if anything, the desire to program and control her suggests the opposite - but will alter her life, mainly through the cognitive confusion between her nature and the misinformation programmed into her brain.

Today information - which, as far as humans true nature is concerned, equals "misinformation" - is everywhere all the time, and same goes for confusion.

Gender dysphoria, transvestism, hermaphroditism etc isn't some blessed way towards emancipation. If some environmental agency makes a test in a river and finds that the fish have turned two-gendered or that the biggest females are trying to breed other females... there's no "fantastic, they're on they're way to liberty". Nah, we say "environmental pollution" and we resolve the problem.

That people feel/think that they were born in the wrong body just isn't a great sign. The rapid decay of sperm quality among men isn't some sort of feminist victory. Kids looking at men and women and thinking "I don't identify with any of these monsters; I'll invent something of my own" is, on the wider scale, not a natural behaviour in any species similar to man.

Obviously its hard to tell how much comes down to environmental pollution, such as estrogen from sludge used in agriculture and how much of it is psychological pollution.

After all, today we learn early that:
- there is a persistent war between men and women
- there are strong, confusing views on what women and men are
- there are lots of kids and teen shows where the introverted outcast are the way they are due to gender confusion
- trans people etc. get a lot of attention, praise and support from various groups in society

As such, it has become desirable - not least for the confused - to have some sort of gender confusion. In reality, depression, substance abuse and suicide rates are much higher in these groups, and little suggests that for example a sex change makes a difference in most cases. In my personal view, gender confusion is a problem that needs to be solved, not promoted as some journey to freedom, identity and attention.

A problem that is difficult to resolve is that the gender confused are being coupled with people with non-straight sexualities in general. This is somewhat logical due to some shared culture-political issues and movements, but a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman is a very different thing from someone thinking "my brain is in the wrong body".

Gender is highly determinist, biologically rooted, Its not desirable that more and more people get confused or disgusted about it. It is a social construction in so far that you can modify and confuse it with information, bringing it closer (often too close) or further (too far) from "true nature". Problem is that it is difficult to bring up these things without looking like some Putin-voting alt right-Aussie. As long as gender confusion is promoted as "the new gay" its really hard touching it with a bargepole without stepping on someones feet.

Your essay needs a lot of citations.

 

[Han Solo]

Your essay needs a lot of citations.

I'm not disagreeing but you're not going to get it... consider it a speculative fantasy if you like, but consider the points with an open mind.

 

[Curious Orange]

Gosh, Professor Dave has a rather grating style of presentation. Not my preference at all.

Much of what he has presented on the science side of things I have no quibble with, though I am highly suspicious of that suicidal thoughts/rates table he flashed up at the start.

I do take issue with his assumption that his definition of 'woman' is the same as what society as a whole takes it to be, particularly as he bases his later arguments upon that assumption. He states as fact that 'woman means any adult person with female gender identity', when I'm pretty sure that is not universally agreed.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

O k , I am old school and do not hold with this transgender movement at all. I see a male child as one born with male genitalia… end of story. Actually I have compassion for people who come to doubt this fundamental fact about themselves.
I know that for a group of people that make up only about 0.5% of the population, we sure hear a lot about them.

 

[jackanada]

Warning... essay incoming.

The idea that gender is "constructed" comes from the same philosophical background as "humans have a free will" and "you can become anything you want". Tropes from the 1900s, before modern data science proved that hard determinism is the truth. Give people similar genetics, environments and experiences and they will be very similar people making very similar choices.

Early social engineering showed women and men are different by nature. Naturally, genetical differences make people different even within genders etc, but there's natural gender differences that usually will be there and can only be altered through confusing information. As an example, early sources of nature-altering misinformation - such as religious texts - claims that sexual promiscuity among women is rare, immoral, sinful and unhealthy.

This may not be the average womans true, determined nature - if anything, the desire to program and control her suggests the opposite - but will alter her life, mainly through the cognitive confusion between her nature and the misinformation programmed into her brain.

Today information - which, as far as humans true nature is concerned, equals "misinformation" - is everywhere all the time, and same goes for confusion.

Gender dysphoria, transvestism, hermaphroditism etc isn't some blessed way towards emancipation. If some environmental agency makes a test in a river and finds that the fish have turned two-gendered or that the biggest females are trying to breed other females... there's no "fantastic, they're on they're way to liberty". Nah, we say "environmental pollution" and we resolve the problem.

That people feel/think that they were born in the wrong body just isn't a great sign. The rapid decay of sperm quality among men isn't some sort of feminist victory. Kids looking at men and women and thinking "I don't identify with any of these monsters; I'll invent something of my own" is, on the wider scale, not a natural behaviour in any species similar to man.

Obviously its hard to tell how much comes down to environmental pollution, such as estrogen from sludge used in agriculture and how much of it is psychological pollution.

After all, today we learn early that:
- there is a persistent war between men and women
- there are strong, confusing views on what women and men are
- there are lots of kids and teen shows where the introverted outcast are the way they are due to gender confusion
- trans people etc. get a lot of attention, praise and support from various groups in society

As such, it has become desirable - not least for the confused - to have some sort of gender confusion. In reality, depression, substance abuse and suicide rates are much higher in these groups, and little suggests that for example a sex change makes a difference in most cases. In my personal view, gender confusion is a problem that needs to be solved, not promoted as some journey to freedom, identity and attention.

A problem that is difficult to resolve is that the gender confused are being coupled with people with non-straight sexualities in general. This is somewhat logical due to some shared culture-political issues and movements, but a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman is a very different thing from someone thinking "my brain is in the wrong body".

Gender is highly determinist, biologically rooted, Its not desirable that more and more people get confused or disgusted about it. It is a social construction in so far that you can modify and confuse it with information, bringing it closer (often too close) or further (too far) from "true nature". Problem is that it is difficult to bring up these things without looking like some Putin-voting alt right-Aussie. As long as gender confusion is promoted as "the new gay" its really hard touching it with a bargepole without stepping on someones feet.

My brother was bemoaning the fact that the daily mail reading babysitter was going on about micro plastics causing the rise in trans.
Being a pub scientist I ventured that while obviously unproven that such a mechanism was possible.
Turns out I misunderstood the concern which was more can we just treat trans people as other humans and let them get on with their lives. Pollution needs to tackled, there's a shit load of issues caused by it, let's not add it to all the baggage trans people already have.

 

[chip]

Much of what he has presented on the science side of things I have no quibble with, though I am highly suspicious of that suicidal thoughts/rates table he flashed up at the start.

That prompted my interest, my partner works in psychiatric care and this has been an increasing area of conversation for us. I don't think that table was very useful either, it seemed like it was originally intended to make some other point about pre and post-puberty but lacked any real credence. No way of judging wht the percentages represented (i.e when reporting was made).

From what my partner tells me, there has been a very significant increase in suicide attempts and reporting suicidal thoughts in those with gender dysphoria, particularly amongst those aged 20-35 (my age bands). Of course, almost impossible to seperate correlation and causation as there will often be other adverse factors that bring people into the system. The number of young people having in-patient psychiatric care with gender dysphoria has increased since covid in this (small) part of the world. It doesn't matter what name, term, sex or gender we use to describe them, this is a very vulnerable group of people which we understand very little about.

 

[brightn'ove]

deleted

 

[dsr-burnley]

To go back to the OP, which was about healthcare, should a trans woman be called in for cervical smears and told not to have prostate cancer tests? Surely not. In healthcare, biological sex is vital.

 

[Curious Orange]

That prompted my interest, my partner works in psychiatric care and this has been an increasing area of conversation for us. I don't think that table was very useful either, it seemed like it was originally intended to make some other point about pre and post-puberty but lacked any real credence. No way of judging wht the percentages represented (i.e when reporting was made).

From what my partner tells me, there has been a very significant increase in suicide attempts and reporting suicidal thoughts in those with gender dysphoria, particularly amongst those aged 20-35 (my age bands). Of course, almost impossible to seperate correlation and causation as there will often be other adverse factors that bring people into the system. The number of young people having in-patient psychiatric care with gender dysphoria has increased since covid in this (small) part of the world. It doesn't matter what name, term, sex or gender we use to describe them, this is a very vulnerable group of people which we understand very little about.

This may be of some interest to you:

Review of suicides and gender dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust: independent report

www.gov.uk

 

[jackanada]

To go back to the OP, which was about healthcare, should a trans woman be called in for cervical smears and told not to have prostate cancer tests? Surely not. In healthcare, biological sex is vital.

I did see a post from a trans woman who'd gone into A&E and was very taken with the nurse who apologised for asking but it might turn out to be important to know the original plumbing.

 

[Audax]

Not had a chance to watch the video that resurfaced this thread yet. I will, though. In the meantime...

My understanding is that there are biological / genetic factors that can play a part in gender dysphoria. Specifically, some genes associated with male/female development can be "switched on/off" at various points during development, and depending on when they are on/off can have impacts on how the brain develops. It's a gross over-simplification, but it's possible for a baby to develop a "female" brain and a "male" body depending on how and when various genes get switched on.

 

[jackanada]

Not had a chance to watch the video that resurfaced this thread yet. I will, though. In the meantime...

My understanding is that there are biological / genetic factors that can play a part in gender dysphoria. Specifically, some genes associated with male/female development can be "switched on/off" at various points during development, and depending on when they are on/off can have impacts on how the brain develops. It's a gross over-simplification, but it's possible for a baby to develop a "female" brain and a "male" body depending on how and when various genes get switched on.

That is true, but it's only a tiny part of the story. Even if you had a PhD in sexual development and gender identity (surely someone has one) you'd just say there was more to know.
When it came to trans issues for a long time I didn't really know anything about it, and I certainly didn't get it.
The single most important thing I realised is I don't have to. It doesn't effect me. I just have to not be a **** about it.
(In no way implying you are a **** here - added for clarity because we all know it's easy to misinterpret intentions in a post)

 

[Motogull]

I'm bound to bollocks this up. I hope not to. I mean well.

To me, it begins with anatomical sex. Tail or no tail is a good place to start.
We then have (no, not in that sense) hermaphrodites. That's the start point stuffed.
There is then the intuitive sex. Put another way, born into the wrong anatomical form. Fair enough. Tough to cope with I guess.

Then it all goes a bit wrong due to people taking things to extremes and spoiling it for those in a dilemma. By this I mean the tails saying they are no tails and abusing no tails. Anatomical women should be safe from anatomical men declaring themselves no tails.

Medical terminology should be sacrosanct.

 

[Curious Orange]

We then have (no, not in that sense) hermaphrodites. That's the start point stuffed.
There is then the intuitive sex. Put another way, born into the wrong anatomical form. Fair enough. Tough to cope with I guess.

Nobody is born in the wrong body. You might not like it, or aspects of it, but it is yours and nobody should be so cruel as to suggest it is 'wrong'.

 

[Triggaaar]

The science is men are men and woman are woman.
You can feel you are a man or a woman and can have surgery to change if you want ( as long as you are an adult) and can dress as the sex you think you are.

Can I dress as the sex I'm not? Please?

 

[Motogull]

Nobody is born in the wrong body. You might not like it, or aspects of it, but it is yours and nobody should be so cruel as to suggest it is 'wrong'.

Oh alright then, some people have the perception they were born into the incorrect anatomical body. Is that better?

 

[Curious Orange]

Oh alright then, some people have the perception they were born into the incorrect anatomical body. Is that better?

Not for them it isn't

 

[Mustafa II]

I really, really dislike the gender debate.

It's just too extreme and divisive. It needs to calm the f*** down, or just go away completely.

If people want to dress/behave or even physically change their bodies into another gender (as an adult), that's fine. Ideally we could all agree on this fact, and leave it at that.

The problem is that people are continually trying to cite science to back up their personal opinions on the matter. But it's not a scientific problem, it's a cultural or psychological one. Everyone is just banging their heads against a wall in this debate and it always just boils down to personal opinion.

 

[BadFish]

I really, really dislike the gender debate.

It's just too extreme and divisive. It needs to calm the f*** down, or just go away completely.

If people want to dress/behave or even physically change their bodies into another gender (as an adult), that's fine. Ideally we could all agree on this fact, and leave it at that.

The problem is that people are continually trying to cite science to back up their personal opinions on the matter. But it's not a scientific problem, it's a cultural or psychological one. Everyone is just banging their heads against a wall in this debate and it always just boils down to personal opinion.

Science is in the process of explaining this, if one chooses to follow.

You have essentially suggested that it is not a scientific problem, it's a psychological one. Which is science.

Science seeks to explain and understand the world around us. This is exactly what science does and what it is for.

Science doesn't care about your personal opinions, it will attempt to explain what is going on for people and if we have any sense we will use those explanations to do our personal opinions.

The trouble of course, is that people won't. As can be seen on this thread.

 

[Mustafa II]

Science is in the process of explaining this, if one chooses to follow.

You have essentially suggested that it is not a scientific problem, it's a psychological one. Which is science.

Science seeks to explain and understand the world around us. This is exactly what science does and what it is for.

Science doesn't care about your personal opinions, it will attempt to explain what is going on for people and if we have any sense we will use those explanations to do our personal opinions.

The trouble of course, is that people won't. As can be seen on this thread.

Science famously has a very difficult time with psychology as the human mind is so complex, subjective and difficult to measure.

You can cherry pick certain studies which support your personal opinion - and those with the opposite views can do the same with theirs - and you'll both get absolutely nowhere, except red in the face.

People should just accept that some people feel like being another gender - and there are people that believe there is something wrong with wanting to be another gender.

Ultimately we should just accept the conflicting views and move on from the matter, as there's a good chance there will not be concrete evidence to support either position in our life times.