[News] Gender and biological sex

[dsr-burnley]

Never ever ever will I ever understand why this stuff is such a big issue in today’s world. I mean, apart from a tiny tiny percentage of society, who cares? This debate should be so far down the scale on the things that matter in this country, and yet is seems to constantly be at the forefront of the news, and seems to ignite such strong opinions in people. It’s bizarre.

JK Rowling is a large part of the reason why it is a big issue - for a good reason. When it was just a matter of dressing up as the opposite sex, people weren't too bothered. JK Rowling got involved when the gender activists wanted to abolish women's refuges and make them open to anyone who is biologically male. The idea proposed by Emma Watson and others is that women who are frightened of people with penises should have nowhere to go, because people with penises should be allowed in women's refuges.

The sport issue is the other big thing. If only the trans activists would accept that the split of men's and women's sport is not because of a social desire to separate men and women, but is because men are physically stronger - and that a man who becomes a trans woman does not stop being physically stronger - then that part of the issue would go away.

 

[Curious Orange]

I've got more learning to do. I've done enough to know that the most common anti-trans arguments made are far too simplistic ("it's biology isn't it, you're born male or female")

Okay, taking sex as being the gamete type the body is physiologically set up to produce (as this would be most peoples understanding of sex), then strictly speaking for 99% of humans that simplicity is true, they are born either male or female, and this would also be true for a portion of gender non-conforming individuals. The only humans that it would not apply to are those with Disorders of Sexual Development (who are really, really, rare).

The realisation that I think society is slowly coming to after several years of angry shouting, and horrid behaviour from from certain sections, is that there are perfectly valid reasons to discriminate* for things based on a person's actual sex, rather than their assumed gender. Also, recording a person's actual sex when gathering data can be important, for example for legal or medical reasons, and also for producing meaningful statistics.

Hopefully, things will now calm down and this will become less of an issue, and we can just let people get on with being themselves again.





* we discriminate all the time, not all discrimination is bad.

 

[BadFish]

All good . I know I have a lot to learn, and I'm lucky to work for an employer who has invested in, and believes in, DEI.

The one thing I'd disagree with in your post above is "I don't have to". The more people who educate themselves on the topic, and at the very least through that education come to the same conclusion you have that there's no need to be a **** about it, the better. Even better, though, is people who take it a step beyond "not being a ****" and become an ally - calling out those people who are being a ****, pointing them at educational resources, ensure that those who might be marginalised by the "being a ****" element in society are made to feel welcome around you.

I've got more learning to do. I've done enough to know that the most common anti-trans arguments made are far too simplistic ("it's biology isn't it, you're born male or female") and/or not supported by data ("normal women are in danger from predatory trans-women using female-only facilities"). That last example, or variations on it, is one that I've seen casually trotted out a few times in this thread - and I would challenge those who have to go and do some proper research. The data available just doesn't back it up.

The conversations potentially involved in. The whole safe space thing kind of amuse me. In my head they go something like this, let's call the brains of the outfit John King and George Linke

JK - I really need to raise awareness around women being attacked and abused. Some of the statistics are shockig around this and we really need to get people, especially men talking about this shit.

GL - That is a great idea, women really need some help with this, we could use our platform to really help with this. We should probably think about focussing our efforts in a particular area to start. What do you think, domestic violence? date rape? drink spiking that seems to be on the rise? Its gotta be domestic violence though hasn't it, the stats on this are so alarming. We need to get men to hold. ..

JK (inturrupts) - Trans people attacking women in bathrooms and changing rooms.

GL -. . . um. . . well yeah. . . i mean. . . I have really never heard of that happening but. .

JK -. . . also men pretending to be trans women to get into changing rooms to attack women.

GL -. . . again. . . not something I have ever heard of happening but. . . . f*** it. . . yeah I am in, it seems important. What are the stats around people prepared to attack someone else but will not break the rules around using a female bathroom so come up with an elaborate plan to pretend to be trans to gain access to the unlocked door to the bathroom.

JK - Yes i think therr are loads. Remember it may cost you your career, reputation and people may think that we are just an anti trans prick but...

GL -... But this issue that I have never heard happened is important... We have to try.



As a community have we ever spent so much time and effort arguing about something that has so rarely happened?

 

[dsr-burnley]

The conversations potentially involved in. The whole safe space thing kind of amuse me. In my head they go something like this, let's call the brains of the outfit John King and George Linke

JK - I really need to raise awareness around women being attacked and abused. Some of the statistics are shockig around this and we really need to get people, especially men talking about this shit.

GL - That is a great idea, women really need some help with this, we could use our platform to really help with this. We should probably think about focussing our efforts in a particular area to start. What do you think, domestic violence? date rape? drink spiking that seems to be on the rise? Its gotta be domestic violence though hasn't it, the stats on this are so alarming. We need to get men to hold. ..

JK (inturrupts) - Trans people attacking women in bathrooms and changing rooms.

GL -. . . um. . . well yeah. . . i mean. . . I have really never heard of that happening but. .

JK -. . . also men pretending to be trans women to get into changing rooms to attack women.

GL -. . . again. . . not something I have ever heard of happening but. . . . f*** it. . . yeah I am in, it seems important. What are the stats around people prepared to attack someone else but will not break the rules around using a female bathroom so come up with an elaborate plan to pretend to be trans to gain access to the unlocked door to the bathroom.

JK - Yes i think therr are loads. Remember it may cost you your career, reputation and people may think that we are just an anti trans prick but...

GL -... But this issue that I have never heard happened is important... We have to try.



As a community have we ever spent so much time and effort arguing about something that has so rarely happened?

Don't you think you're over-trivialising the issue of battered women and women-only refuges? Part of the issue, which of course you totally ignore, is that there are battered women who are frightened of men to a much greater extent than worrying about public toilets. The whole starting point of the issue was that JK Rowling (a former battered wife herself, as you are no doubt aware) objects strongly to the idea that battered women who are frightened of men must not be allowed women-only safe houses.

There is a women's refuge on the street where I work. Men literally are not allowed in - not postmen or delivery men, not plumbers or tradesmen, not accountants, and of course not clients. Certain people believe that any of these men should be allowed admittance simply be declaring that they are female. JK Rowling, and others, do not.

Battered women are not as rare as you would like to hope.

 

[BadFish]

Don't you think you're over-trivialising the issue of battered women and women-only refuges? Part of the issue, which of course you totally ignore, is that there are battered women who are frightened of men to a much greater extent than worrying about public toilets. The whole starting point of the issue was that JK Rowling (a former battered wife herself, as you are no doubt aware) objects strongly to the idea that battered women who are frightened of men must not be allowed women-only safe houses.

There is a women's refuge on the street where I work. Men literally are not allowed in - not postmen or delivery men, not plumbers or tradesmen, not accountants, and of course not clients. Certain people believe that any of these men should be allowed admittance simply be declaring that they are female. JK Rowling, and others, do not.

Battered women are not as rare as you would like to hope.

I was pointing out the stupidity of focusing attention on places where women either rarely or never get battered over the places where they do.

By all means a prove me wrong and share the statistics of where women are getting attacked in bathrooms and changing rooms by trans people or people pretending to be trans.

I remain highly suspicious that this is not as big an issue as the focus it is given.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I was pointing out the stupidity of focusing attention on places where women either rarely or never get battered over the places where they do.

By all means a prove me wrong and share the statistics of where women are getting attacked in bathrooms and changing rooms by trans people or people pretending to be trans.

I remain highly suspicious that this is not as big an issue as the focus it is given.

It probably isn't worth focussing on, which may be why those who support the rights of men to play in women's sport and to occupy women's refuges choose to concentrate on it.

For heaven's sake, at least one government in these islands was anxious to allow rapists to go to women's prisons, and it took an almighty pushback by the "anti-woke" people to reverse that decision. That's how fanatical these people can be.

 

[BadFish]

It probably isn't worth focussing on, which may be why those who support the rights of men to play in women's sport and to occupy women's refuges choose to concentrate on it.

For heaven's sake, at least one government in these islands was anxious to allow rapists to go to women's prisons, and it took an almighty pushback by the "anti-woke" people to reverse that decision. That's how fanatical these people can be

I can only ask again for the stats that prove that this issue around women's safety is as more more pertinent than others, let's take domestic violence as the bench mark.

I also note that while I was talking about the women's toilets and changing rooms you are talking about refuges and sport.

Still my question of why people claiming to campaign for women's safety continue to highlight such areas, in place of where women are actually getting attacked and battered (as you put it) remains unanswered. Which was the point of my somewhat lighthearted satire that has upset you so.

I am sensing that I will not get an answer so perhaps we are best to leave it there.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It probably isn't worth focussing on, which may be why those who support the rights of men to play in women's sport and to occupy women's refuges choose to concentrate on it.

For heaven's sake, at least one government in these islands was anxious to allow rapists to go to women's prisons, and it took an almighty pushback by the "anti-woke" people to reverse that decision. That's how fanatical these people can be.

Mmmmm.......nope.
You are talking bollocks.
The weight of opinion pushing for letting male rapists go to women's prisons is this heavy:

Never, in the history of human endeavour, have I heard so much outrage over so little

 

[Curious Orange]

It seems that Sussex University has been put on the naughty step...

BBC News - Sussex university fined £585k in free speech row

University of Sussex fined £585,000 in transgender free speech row

The university is fined by the higher education regulator for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

www.bbc.com

This related to Kathleen Stock's views on sex and gender, which resulted in some outrage, shouting, and horrid behaviour.

Kathleen Stock - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[dsr-burnley]

I can only ask again for the stats that prove that this issue around women's safety is as more more pertinent than others, let's take domestic violence as the bench mark.

I also note that while I was talking about the women's toilets and changing rooms you are talking about refuges and sport.

Still my question of why people claiming to campaign for women's safety continue to highlight such areas, in place of where women are actually getting attacked and battered (as you put it) remains unanswered. Which was the point of my somewhat lighthearted satire that has upset you so.

I am sensing that I will not get an answer so perhaps we are best to leave it there.

I'm not actually upset. I can disagree with what people put on a message board without getting upset. But thank you for your concern.

However, you have missed the point I was making. My concern about transgender acceptance is that it what the transgender activists want will actively harm, in different ways, both battered women in need of a refuge, and any woman that want's to play sport. I think that the issue of toilets is less serious (but I still think that obvious males should not go into women's toilets, if only as a matter of politeness and so that they can be more easily ejected if a dodgy pervert is hanging around there).

But if I think the subject of public toilets is relatively trivial, and you think that the subject of public toilets is relatively trivial, why do you object to me talking about refuges and sport when you want to talk about public toilets? The toilets issue is raised (IMO) more often by pro-trans gender activists than by anti, as a sort of straw man argument. It's far easier to talk about the risks of men in public toilets than about the unfairness of men taking medals in women's sport.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Mmmmm.......nope.
You are talking bollocks.
The weight of opinion pushing for letting male rapists go to women's prisons is this heavy:

View attachment 199057

Never, in the history of human endeavour, have I heard so much outrage over so little

Which makes an even weirder hill for the SNP to die on.

 

[jackanada]

Mmmmm.......nope.
You are talking bollocks.
The weight of opinion pushing for letting male rapists go to women's prisons is this heavy:

View attachment 199057

Never, in the history of human endeavour, have I heard so much outrage over so little

Kind of a non issue because in the event of said trans woman getting to go to a women's jail they are going to be immediately segregated. And in the highly unlikely event that didn't happen they'll be segregated once they're out the hospital wing after getting jugged.

Edit - quoted audax by accident

 

[Jackthelad]

Sussex university getting fined 500k for lack of freedom of speech towards anyone who disagreed with the extreme dogma that was being pushed on gender and trans. Ironically she is from the LGBTQ community but was hounded by fascist antifa movements that had gripped the university.

From BBC
“
The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues. “

 

[Weststander]

It seems that Sussex University has been put on the naughty step...

BBC News - Sussex university fined £585k in free speech row

University of Sussex fined £585,000 in transgender free speech row

The university is fined by the higher education regulator for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

www.bbc.com

This related to Kathleen Stock's views on sex and gender, which resulted in some outrage, shouting, and horrid behaviour.

Kathleen Stock - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

R4 covered that story for years. Disgusting treatment of Kathleen Stock, a lifelong feminist, shut down by mob rule.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sussex university getting fined 500k for lack of freedom of speech towards anyone who disagreed with the extreme dogma that was being pushed on gender and trans. Ironically she is from the LGBTQ community but was hounded by fascist antifa movements that had gripped the university.

From BBC
“
The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues. “

While I agree that stopping this academic expressing an opinion that is supported by facts (which is what I assume, I haven't checked) is wrong,
what is the evidence that the university of Sussex is 'gripped' by 'fascist antifa movements'?

The only person I ever say banging on about antifa on NSC was dear old Bushy.
My impression is 'they' have about as much traction as a set of bald tyres.

Edit: the BBC page says:

"Prof Stock faced protests on the university campus after she published a book questioning whether gender identity was more "socially significant" than biological sex."

A Guardian article from 23 reports, after 'Trans activists' disrupted here talk at Oxford:

"Stock urged her detractors to read her book Material Girls. She said: “I want trans people protected from violence and discrimination.” She insisted she was not anti-trans despite what her critics said.

In her address, Stock said it was “not fair on females” to share spaces such as changing rooms and bathrooms with trans women because of the potential threat of violence. “Why should females take this burden on?” she asked.

Stock added: “We are supposed to care about women. It is a risk of a man saying he is a woman and going into a space and taking advantage of that.”

Stock called for the creation of third spaces to protect trans people."

I feel I am 100% on Stock's side. But I am still baffled by your antifa comments, reference to which appears nowhere as far as I can see.

I have googled stock and antifa and can find only this, from a 'unheard' web page:

“I went to work as normal, and saw stickers all over my building about the ‘transphobic shit that comes out of Kathleen Stock’s mouth’,” Kathleen says. “That was obviously distressing but the next day it escalated.” As she walked to campus from the train station, she was confronted with a number of posters calling for her to be sacked: “Fire Kathleen Stock”, “Kathleen Stock’s A Transphobe”, “We’re Not Paying Our Fees For Transphobia With Kathleen Stock”.

“They were setting off flares… And they later took a picture of a man in a balaclava, all in black, looking just like Antifa. The imagery was obviously intimidating: holding a massive banner saying ‘Stock out’, while setting off pink and blue flares because those are the colours on the transgender flag."

I suggest that bringing up antifa is silliness.

I would be more concerned at the lack of courage and intellectual rigour expressed and practiced by the University of Sussex higher management.

 

[Curious Orange]

While I agree that stopping this academic expressing an opinion that is supported by facts (which is what I assume, I haven't checked) is wrong,
what is the evidence that the university of Sussex is 'gripped' by 'fascist antifa movements'?

The only person I ever say banging on about antifa on NSC was dear old Bushy.
My impression is 'they' have about as much traction as a set of bald tyres.

She basically pointed out that a heterosexual trans-woman isn't a lesbian. Which is of course particularly true if they haven't had bottom surgery.

 

[amexer]

How did University not allow freedom of speeech when Prof Sock said everything she wanted. She resigned after the protest about her views Did the university take the protesters side only thing wrong was allowing protest against somebodies views on Trans
Surely
Whatever when university is short of money and a fine of half million is mad

 

[jackanada]

I may have made this point before but it does seem a shame the amount of effort trans activists put into arguing with people who mainly agree with and support them, when the trumpian fascists aren't far from declaring a final solution.
I get that individuals do not tend to respond rationally when feeling attacked, and that the relatively minor issues are stoked by right wing populist media, but I do feel the cause would benefit from more strategic thinking from it's organisers.
I could of course be entirely wrong I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[Curious Orange]

How did University not allow freedom of speeech when Prof Sock said everything she wanted. She resigned after the protest about her views Did the university take the protesters side only thing wrong was allowing protest against somebodies views on Trans
Surely
Whatever when university is short of money and a fine of half million is mad

You might want to read the BBC article I linked earlier, as the regulator's reasoning is explained in there.

 

[BadFish]

I may have made this point before but it does seem a shame the amount of effort trans activists put into arguing with people who mainly agree with and support them, when the trumpian fascists aren't far from declaring a final solution.
I get that individuals do not tend to respond rationally when feeling attacked, and that the relatively minor issues are stoked by right wing populist media, but I do feel the cause would benefit from more strategic thinking from it's organisers.
I could of course be entirely wrong I'm just throwing it out there.

It also seems a shame that allegedly the protesters didn't focus their efforts towards reading the book of the person they were protest against.

At university level you would hope that placards included correct citations.

Maybe that is why the university was fined.