Could Nigel Farage end up a great British political leader?

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Above all they're a joke party and will, much to my amusement, take votes off the Tory party. They could be worse.

Agree about taking votes from the Tories, but UKIP are also making significant inroads into Labour's votes too. As I mentioned in my post above, UKIP are targeting Labour constituencies with their poster campaign.

Remember that according to UKIP, it's the traditional working class, Labour voter, that is having their wages squeezed by cheap, Eastern European labour.

 

[pastafarian]

There was a report recently suggesting the majority of UKIPs defected voter base isn't actually from the Conservatives. When I have time, I'll grab that article. It's an interesting read.

did you mean this article?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/left-behind-voters-only-ukip-understands


if anyone is interested Yougov has some breakdown figures here.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/where-ukip-gets-its-support/

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Unfortunately I think you are wrong. I think lots of people are against the EU in principle - certainly UKIP are. Reform is fine but please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just as much as in 1945 the world needs co-operation and peace not conflict and competition. One day Russia will join the EU and then the whole of Europe will be united in a peaceful society of states. What an ideal to follow!

Russia will join the EU...? is that before they have taken over the Ukraine and then turned their eyes on the baltic states or after ?
The mighty EU have done a great job against Putins expansionist plans didn't they.

 

[Machiavelli]

Russia will join the EU...? is that before they have taken over the Ukraine and then turned their eyes on the baltic states or after ?
The mighty EU have done a great job against Putins expansionist plans didn't they.

The same EU that UKIP call a super-state, and the same Putin that Farage says that he admires.

 

[sahel]

Russia will join the EU...? is that before they have taken over the Ukraine and then turned their eyes on the baltic states or after ?
The mighty EU have done a great job against Putins expansionist plans didn't they.

Ukraine represents a failure of both sides. The EU and US have been insensitive to Russia's interests and the legacy of Russian emigration during the time of the Soviet Union. A deal should have been done before all the trouble blew up - Crimea to Russia, Eastern Ukraine a devolved region. That deal will still no doubt be done. The trouble is that when politics fails violence ensues -- the very reason surely why the EU, based on talk -talk not war - war is so important

 

[Machiavelli]

It's seriously concerning when people seriously think this man would make a good politician. He can talk, he can produce a worldy of a speech. But his party's policies are literally drawn from the latest trends on YouGov. The BNP pre-2010 GE did this, they had this big media coverage, with all these polls suggesting they'll win a seat. They targeted Dagenham & Barking constituency with all their resources and came 4th. The media coverage often doesn't reflect the real nature of voting intentions. Same goes with the recent debates, those who are really anti-EU and more than likely to watch and vote in those debates than someone who's either complacent or pro-EU as it is, without resorting to ad-hominem, an obsession for them to blame the EU for all the country's ills.

His latest poster about EU immigration is laughable. EU workers are legally paid the same as us in terms of minimum wage, so where's the proof they're working for much cheaper than we are? If so, then perhaps one could argue is that the average Brit's wage demands are too high and it's more financially beneficial for the businesses to pay the EU worker the minimum wage. However, the so called "free party of free people and free markets" completely contradict themselves, free migration is essential to free markets and access to the world market itself.

75% of laws are made in Brussels, and we're yet to see the evidence that this is the case. Businesses have access to the EU single market, that's over 750,000,000 people. That's 1 common policy for trading standards rather than 27 individual trading standards and 27 potential bureaucracies to go through. Most policies have simplified trading in Europe.

You've provided the proof in your own argument here: the presence of more/immigrant labour means that employers can offer lower wages; by contrast when labour is scarce, employers have to offer higher wages. That's why the issue of unemployment and labour availability matters. Unemployment has gone through the roof over the past three decades. Prior to that, if it reached the level of 250,000 it was considered a national crisis, whereas today (Conservative) politicians congratulate themselves when it falls by tens of thousands to a (heavily massaged) figure of about 2.4million. Unemployment is one of the many factors that has contributed to obscene divides in wealth in our globalising world which, in turn, prompts the increase in alienation that UKIP feeds off.

 

[GreersElbow]

did you mean this article?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/left-behind-voters-only-ukip-understands

Aye, that is indeed. Thanks for linking it.

I accept polls are wrong sometimes but the latest ones show Labour on around 37, Tories around 35, UKIP around 15% and Lib Dems under 10%. It will be interesting if that is the result in 2015 as to what horse trading is carried out to form a government.

My prediction is likely a Labour-Lib Dem coalition. I don't think the tories will go into meltdown, however, Labour could in some sense save the Lib Dems. The Lib dems may also force labour to be fiscally responsible. If so, then perhaps some more socially progressive policies (An area, where I put my hands up as a member of the tories, we've lacked) may go through and help out. The food bank situation will bite the Tories, however, I still think the public are very wary of Ed Miliband as a leader. He hasn't done much to prove himself as leader of the opposition.

 

[GreersElbow]

You've provided the proof in your own argument here: the presence of more/immigrant labour means that employers can offer lower wages; by contrast when labour is scarce, employers have to offer higher wages. That's why the issue of unemployment and labour availability matters. Unemployment has gone through the roof over the past three decades. Prior to that, if it reached the level of 250,000 it was considered a national crisis, whereas today (Conservative) politicians congratulate themselves when it falls by tens of thousands to a (heavily massaged) figure of about 2.4million. Unemployment is one of the many factors that has contributed to obscene divides in wealth in our globalising world which, in turn, prompts the increase in alienation that UKIP feeds off.

Correct, but this hasn't been UKIP's line of argument, often inferring that they're being paid less than that. However, where should the minimum wage for EU workers be set if we were to do one, and more importantly constitutionally speaking; can the UK do such a thing?

I acknowledge the argument that the single market has caused some level of unemployment unimaginable decades ago. However, full employment is often static and undesirable and the fluidity of the labour market in the EU enables us to seek out skilled workers abroad without the bureaucracies involved outside the single market. Going back 3 decades, how fluid and flexible was the labour market?

 

[hybrid_x]

the Corps and Bank of England will never let England out of the EU so UKIP is really just theatre to appease the rascist masses.

saying that, Farage has more charisma than any of the others, and speaks in laymans terms, and that will win many votes.

 

[The Birdman]

Claims to be one thing
Nigel Farage claims I'm not really a politician at all' and that' Almost everybody in politics today,from about the age of 14 or 15 want to be politicians. They are absolutely career politicians. I never had any intention of being involved in this at all.'
Yorkshire post29th June 2013
But in reality
Farage joined the Conservatives aged14*,has made six unsuccessful attempt to become an MP so far and has appeared on Question Time more than any other politictian since 2009**

 

[The Birdman]

It's not just Farage in August 2010

UKIP energy spokesman, Roger Helmer MEP, described the use of solar panels as' sheer lunacy' and described feed-in-tariffs as 'the great solar power scam'. Roger Helmer Blog17th August 2010
But at the same time...
He installed Solar Panels at his Leicestershire home to make over£1,000 a year because of green subsidies.

 

[mikeyjh]

Claims to be one thing
Nigel Farage claims I'm not really a politician at all' and that' Almost everybody in politics today,from about the age of 14 or 15 want to be politicians. They are absolutely career politicians. I never had any intention of being involved in this at all.'
Yorkshire post29th June 2013
But in reality
Farage joined the Conservatives aged14*,has made six unsuccessful attempt to become an MP so far and has appeared on Question Time more than any other politictian since 2009**

Parking aside his regular hypocrisy, is he really claiming that trading in commodities is somehow a better grounding than a career politician?

 

[cunning fergus]

It's not just Farage in August 2010

UKIP energy spokesman, Roger Helmer MEP, described the use of solar panels as' sheer lunacy' and described feed-in-tariffs as 'the great solar power scam'. Roger Helmer Blog17th August 2010
But at the same time...
He installed Solar Panels at his Leicestershire home to make over£1,000 a year because of green subsidies.

I'm not an expert but didn't he have a point, the taxpayer continued to subsidise solar panel installations to a point where it became untenable, when the taxpayer subsidy was finally cut it provoked a 90% drop off. The whole scheme seemed to be in favour of the wealthy who could afford to install solar panels at the expense of the poor who could not but would see rising bills as energy companies recovered costs............what has happened to energy prices since 2010?

Whether he is a hypocrite is a different point, however if his point was on the subsidy he was not attacking the use of solar panels per se.

At worst he could be disingenuous,but then there are frankly bigger fish to fry, he is unelected and you may continue to hold him in disdain. Compared to the Nick Clegg for example he is a saint...........check out his position on joining the euro in 2001.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/nick-clegg-joining-euro-risk-gideon-rachman/

 

[CheeseRolls]

I'm not an expert but didn't he have a point, the taxpayer continued to subsidise solar panel installations to a point where it became untenable, when the taxpayer subsidy was finally cut it provoked a 90% drop off. The whole scheme seemed to be in favour of the wealthy who could afford to install solar panels at the expense of the poor who could not but would see rising bills as energy companies recovered costs............what has happened to energy prices since 2010?

Whether he is a hypocrite is a different point, however if his point was on the subsidy he was not attacking the use of solar panels per se.

At worst he could be disingenuous,but then there are frankly bigger fish to fry, he is unelected and you may continue to hold him in disdain. Compared to the Nick Clegg for example he is a saint...........check out his position on joining the euro in 2001.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/nick-clegg-joining-euro-risk-gideon-rachman/

Solar panel prices have halved since 2010. The point of the subsidy was and is, to encourage investment in more efficient production methods worldwide. If this trend in cost cutting continues, solar power is on target to be subsidy free worldwide by 2020, for the UK with our rather feeble sunshine record this is 2025 (solar power will cost the same to generate as electricity from gas), but then I don't expect the Little Englanders to understand global scale high tech mass production. Why don't we just change the laws and make our own, invoking the spirit of Blue Peter ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Solar panel prices have halved since 2010. The point of the subsidy was and is, to encourage investment in more efficient production methods worldwide. If this trend in cost cutting continues, solar power is on target to be subsidy free worldwide by 2020, for the UK with our rather feeble sunshine record this is 2025 (solar power will cost the same to generate as electricity from gas), but then I don't expect the Little Englanders to understand global scale high tech mass production. Why don't we just change the laws and make our own, invoking the spirit of Blue Peter ?

An argument somewhat loses it's potency when the poster uses this pathetic phrase.

 

[CheeseRolls]

An argument somewhat loses it's potency when the poster uses this pathetic phrase.

Why does Little Englanders make you so tetchy ? If UKIP transformed into ENGIP tomorrow, they would lose a handful of voters. Farage and his team have a special appeal to a certain type of Englishman, who want to be governed by their own rules.

 

[cunning fergus]

Solar panel prices have halved since 2010. The point of the subsidy was and is, to encourage investment in more efficient production methods worldwide. If this trend in cost cutting continues, solar power is on target to be subsidy free worldwide by 2020, for the UK with our rather feeble sunshine record this is 2025 (solar power will cost the same to generate as electricity from gas), but then I don't expect the Little Englanders to understand global scale high tech mass production. Why don't we just change the laws and make our own, invoking the spirit of Blue Peter ?

Prices for solar panels would be even cheaper for consumers if it wasnt for the "petit europeans" and their trade protectionist ways.................

http://www.cityam.com/blog/1385983257/eu-hammers-chinese-solar-panels-new-tariffs

 

[Triggaaar]

It's not just Farage in August 2010

UKIP energy spokesman, Roger Helmer MEP, described the use of solar panels as' sheer lunacy' and described feed-in-tariffs as 'the great solar power scam'. Roger Helmer Blog17th August 2010
But at the same time...
He installed Solar Panels at his Leicestershire home to make over£1,000 a year because of green subsidies.

I'm not sure what's wrong with the above. It seems like his opinion is that the energy, materials and labour used to create solar panels (as well as allowing for their disposal), are not offset by the energy they generate in their life. And that it's only our governments subsidies that make them worthwhile. But since those stupid subsidies are in place, it's worth us (and him) getting them.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Prices for solar panels would be even cheaper for consumers if it wasnt for the "petit europeans" and their trade protectionist ways.................

http://www.cityam.com/blog/1385983257/eu-hammers-chinese-solar-panels-new-tariffs

Oh look the "regular sized" USA are doing something similar

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/17/us-tariffs-chinese-solar-panels

Kill off the competition via a protected home market and subsidised sales overseas, once you have no competition, you can charge what you want, so short term gains versus long term pain. It makes me proud to be a European and the idea that team England could carry any clout in a global trade dispute is frankly laughable.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Why does Little Englanders make you so tetchy ? If UKIP transformed into ENGIP tomorrow, they would lose a handful of voters. Farage and his team have a special appeal to a certain type of Englishman, who want to be governed by their own rules.

As well you know it's used as an insult. Your argument about solar power may well be correct but of course you couldn't help but throw in the phrase to highlight your hatred of UKIP.