[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

I didn’t even realize. Having just googled, the poster above should be ashamed of himself. The following link details the authors of the document. To post it without this important qualification is simply distortion of the debate.

https://leftfootforward.org/2017/03...o-the-british-people-how-many-will-be-broken/

And here is the document itself.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n.../1490680551/govtcontract_final.pdf?1490680551

Not sure Randy actually knows what he is posting, just sees it on facebook , twitter or somewhere and thinks i will spread that then

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

From start to finish and on both sides opinions were polarised and enthrenched. People were challenged and attacked for their opinions and even from here it was frightening how divided the country became. The more people argued and attacked the more they dug in and became more enthrenched in their opinion. Given that often those opinions were not allowed to be neuanced, it was either Brexit or Remain. It became part of people's identity and people were required to defend that identity over and over and over.

It was always going to be difficult for people to change their mind. I can't see this changing going forward either. Brexiteers will point to the successful parts of the withdrawl and Remainers will point to the unsuccessfull. Never the twain shall meet.

The gene is out of the bottle though, an extremely simplistic binary question was asked and am extremely simplistic binary yet painfully narrow answer was garnered. It was a **** up from start to finish and I continue to wonder who is actually going to get what they wanted out of the first vote.

I guess Jacob Reece Mogg and his chums will get to pay even less tax, so there is that.

I would be interested to see how the poll on this thread worked out but don't feel qualified to vote (I'm still waiting for the post brexit plan of how the country can thrive ). Is there a way to see the results without voting?

View Poll Results: As a Brexiteer, what do you feel about where we areVoters 69. You have already voted on this poll
Brexit will make us poorer in the short term, but we will bounce back in my lifetime. 17 24.64%
I was wrong, Brexit wasn't worth doing with these people negotiating 16 23.19%
I am not sure, we should have another referendum in 10 years time 1 1.45%
I am not sure, we should have another referendum in 40 years time (time we were in EU) 00%
Brexit will be a success, no doubt about it 28 40.58%
I voted Brexit, and have another opinion 7 10.14%

 

[BadFish]

It wasn't a left v right issue, rich v poor or bourgeois v proletariat. When people who I respect such as [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION] say they voted for Brexit and articulated differing but considered reasons then perhaps instead of throwing brickbats why not engage in adult debate and listen to their concerns?

There aren't 19.1 million racists in this country and their aren't 19.1 million stupid people either, so instead of belittling, which results in those that don't share your views doubling down, it is better to consider the concerns of others.

There are fundamental and systemic things wrong in this country, which had led to many people feeling unrepresented and cast adrift. The EU may be responsible for some of them, or may be a scapegoat. Until you engage you won't find out.

Great post, bravo.

See also, Trump, D.

Hopefully, we can start to move back toward resepctful discussion and listening to each other.

FWIW, I think that this needs to be the first thing the democrats do in the US.

 

[BadFish]

View Poll Results: As a Brexiteer, what do you feel about where we areVoters 69. You have already voted on this poll
Brexit will make us poorer in the short term, but we will bounce back in my lifetime. 17 24.64%
I was wrong, Brexit wasn't worth doing with these people negotiating 16 23.19%
I am not sure, we should have another referendum in 10 years time 1 1.45%
I am not sure, we should have another referendum in 40 years time (time we were in EU) 00%
Brexit will be a success, no doubt about it 28 40.58%
I voted Brexit, and have another opinion 7 10.14%

Perfect, thank you

 

[pastafarian]

Really interesting to read. Didn’t think it was possible to be left wing & pro-brexit.

In all seriousness what aspects of the more or less solidly socialist construct of the EU in absolute terms did you feel didn’t work from your perspective?

[this is not a fishing post or a flippant comment, I’m genuinely interested]

The pro brexit vote came from all the political spectrum, as did the pro remain vote of course.
This was not a left v right issue(even snp and lib dem voters voted for and against brexit in significant numbers), never was even though some are desperate to frame it as such (not you)

still chuckle at the 4% of UKIP that voted remain apparently, which just goes to show take polls with a pinch of salt......some people answering the phone and giving answers are just going to to take the piss.



https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The biggest problem imo was not the vote, or the outcome but the fact that no planning / preparations were done in the event of a leave vote winning because of the fear that it would leak that this was even being considered and this contributed massively to the problems faced when it then came to start negotiating with the EU as we had no positions on any issues (Using the example of the US elections mentioned earlier in this thread, it would like the various states collecting the ballots but having put no thought into how to count them, having no staff to do this with a deadline looming for it to be completed with constant legal and other challenges thrown in to try to derail any attempts to organise a count and reach a positive result)

We see it time and time again where there is absolutely no planning ahead by public bodies (by both sides, another example for balance would be for the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq and how to restore normal life to the population quickly and not leave a power vacuum which would lead to chaos, they only planned for invasion and nothing else Except maybe how they divide up the oil fields))

We then had May trying to produce a deal that was trying to appease both sides (which would never work) and just resulted a mess that was doomed to fail, wasting more valuable time in the process

Whatever the outcome of the vote had been, there would always be winners and losers.
Some areas benefit far more from being members and therefore free movement of specialist labour, and the trade arrangements already in place with the EU would be seen as a more beneficial outcome than leaving so likely to have a high remain vote in those areas.

Other areas don't benefit from the EU membership in the same way and see it as far more beneficial to be out and see the end of things like free movement of labour, which it could be argued, has helped keep wages for the lower earners suppressed as a higher supply of labour reduces the need for companies to pay more and more in wages to get the employees they need, therefore pushing more people towards the poverty line, creating the need for artificial measures to be introduced like the minimum wage being brought in and increased to try to combat the resulting anti inflationary pay pressures free movement has created

What is very clear is that there is little effort by both sides to understand this divide created as a result of being in or out as people are only really interested in their little area and how they and those in similar positions to them will be affected and so in this case, remainers fail to see the downside of membership or leaving that those who are adversely affected sees.

Other things that drove people to potentially vote leave could include:
* that the EU is heading towards becoming a super state (like the US) meaning that individual country members within the EU will potentially become as meaningful or influential to the rest of the world as the individual US states are to the rest of the world now (meaning that the argument for staying in to stay a world power and leaving would mean we become irrelevant is wrong and the opposite could end up being true in time)

* The EU is protectionist, and limits immigration and trade from outside the EU. Some remain voters use the line that those wanting to leave are protectionist and it's a bad thing and only being in the EU will prevent any protectionism affecting the UK. (conveniently ignoring the protectionism they have in place in the Eu themselves)

Those wanting to leave know it means we can make our own deals with non EU countries, changing how we interact with them and allowing us to increase or decrease limits as we desire and not how the EU wants (something the people of this country will have more influence over through voting here, as we'd be voting for something that we the voters can exert influence and control over unlike the EU parliament which would otherwise hold sway over the UK without UK voters being able to influence the direction or what would be agreed when setting policy, etc....)

The difference is where those borders are drawn and from where then apply (UK or EU border) There is a whole world out there and who knows, looking to other markets like Africa could have potential financial benefits for 3rd world countries through increased trade and the financial benefit it brings to them and their economies

* There are rules on all sorts of things that we have had to follow as members which have prevented the Government from intervening in areas where it was potentially needed to helping to protect our jobs / key industries (like state support or raising tariffs on foreign imports to help prevent a collapse of a key industry / major employer here, just like the Steel industry crisis example recently) actions which are limited / prohibited by EU rules

There are many other things which i can't be bothered to list now but it's far too easy for someone who is opposed to Brexit to ignore things like the above and simplify the whole point of Brexit (claiming people only voted for it because of anything from being lied to (have we actually left yet and stopped paying the EU memberships yet and if we haven't, how can you divert that money elsewhere like the NHS if it is still being used to pay into the EU coffers) or implying Brexit is about things like being racist towards foreigners (how does being free to set your own rules and potentially opening up other areas for free movement should we wish, but it's far too easy to just simplify it again)

Some people see things in like Brexit as you are either one or the other and only one can be right and it's the result which is most beneficial (in their eyes) to them but clearly that is never the case for everyone to be affected in the same way and completely ignores those losing out and adversely affected by either side of the coin.

The poll asking about this vote and if they still support it is another example of people simplifying a very complex issue and assuming that negotiation difficulties on a deal are a deal breaker, still completely ignoring many of the other aspects of why people voted leave (not everyone voted that way for the same reasons in the same way not everyone voted remain did so for the same reasons)

If people are looking to use the prospect of no deal as a reason why Brexit should be stopped (or the original result ignored and we remain in the EU) they should remember the vote was either remain or leave, and not leave but only once a deal is in place which has been put to the people to vote on (or any other version of the any Brexit calls you may hear) - It never ruled out a no deal Brexit, and if you seriously think people only voted leave because they thought the negotiations would be easy, your very much mistaken. If anything, it just highlights the remains failure to push through the message about a no deal being likely, or simply those voting leave knew it was a possible outcome of negotiations, but still decided to vote leave anyway

Too many missed opportunities over the years to listen to what was clearly a large number of people about the issue of the EU membership, the direction it was taking and how opposed they were to it because they were too readily dismissed by those who thought they were right about their view that only EU membership is the right option for us, wherever it led to (potential EU super state, etc) and it's the same attitude we still see from some remainers now who still refuse to consider the opposite viewpoint

 

[Gwylan]

It was arrogant and completely non-listening, but I disagree, imho Major and Blair would’ve got referenda through with ease.

Major certainly would have done. There was little anti-EU feeling in the Tory party at the time - there were 13 "********" (in Major's words) who voted against Maastricht but there wasn't a mass movement. As for the country at large, only nine years previously the Labour manifesto proposed leaving the EEC and the Tories got in with a huge landslide (despite there being 4m unemployed at the time) - there were pockets of resistance but not many,

Lisbon was another matter. If Brown (not Blair, he'd resigned by then) had put that to a referendum, it would have been close. I think he'd have got it through but possibly by a margin even tighter than 52-48. I wouldn't like to have bet on it though

 

[pastafarian]

Not sure those polls show it was not a left v right thing. All the left leaning parties voted majority remain and the right leaning ones voted majority leave?

 

[Randy McNob]

View attachment 130427

You see, this is the sort of nonsense people just get bored with . Its nothing more than a document, over 3 years old, which was entirely compiled by Nick Clegg, pro remain MPs and the ever-disingenuous Open Britain and slanted to one viewpoint, Remain. Not a government contract with the British people at all.

The fact you still post this boring rubbish over 3 years after it was shoved together and sign off your posts Brexit = Nationalism really does show you up.
Fortunately, the majority of those who were pro remain on NSC are not like you in the slightest.

The remain viewpoint at the time was not political bias but common sense. They would feel vindicated by it looking at where we are today, no deal, lorry parks and Kent becoming the toilet of England proves it. You criticise people who been proved correct about leave yet the people on leave side have been wrong about everything like Gove and there now in control. the trouble with yours and brexiters argument is it only satisfies leavers not everyone so you will never get a Brexit that is right for EVERYONE

And Brexit is Nationalism, debates with leavers are usually always centred around British exceptionalism, almost every leave voter sees Europe as our enemy, they have disdain for the EU the reality quickly evaporatea and is replaced by - we used to have an empire, nostalgia, Britain rules the waves, before you know you're talking about the war. And almost every leaver puts immigration at the top of their list. If it was a purely economic decision we would remain!

Oh by the way - I'd have nick Clegg over boris Johnson in a heartbeat

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The remain viewpoint at the time was not political bias but common sense. They would feel vindicated by it looking at where we are today, no deal, lorry parks and Kent becoming the toilet of England proves it. the trouble with yours and brexiters argument is it only satisfies leavers not everyone so you will never get a Brexit that is right for EVERYONE

And Brexit is Nationalism, debates with leavers are usually always centred around British exceptionalism, almost every leave voter sees Europe as our enemy, they have disdain for the EU the reality quickly evaporatea and is replaced by - we used to have an empire, nostalgia, Britain rules the waves, before you know you're talking about the war. And almost every leaver puts immigration at the top of their list. If it was a purely economic decision we would remain!

You are polluting this thread with your prejudices. Try the Brexit thread, this one is not for you.

 

[Gwylan]

And Brexit is Nationalism, debates with leavers are usually always centred around British exceptionalism, almost every leave voter sees Europe as our enemy, they have disdain for the EU the reality quickly evaporatea and is replaced by - we used to have an empire, nostalgia, Britain rules the waves, before you know you're talking about the war. And almost every leaver puts immigration at the top of their list. If it was a purely economic decision we would remain!

That's a gross generalisation. If you look at some of my posts on the Brexit thread you'll see that I argue that the reason that the negotiations are a mess is precisely because they started off with the assumption that the EU is the enemy, with talk of wins and losses. It was not the way to approach everything back then and it's not the way to approach things now.

And I certainly don't put immigration on top of the list. As I said earlier, I'd have been happier to have kept free movement.

 

[cunning fergus]

One thing i've noticed with quite a significant number of brexiteers is their opinion of what brexit would end up has changed as we've gone throught the process, but they claim that that's what they always believed. It seems quite common for them to be much more hardline about brexit now than at the time of the referendum, that whole change from it will be easy to get a deal with the eu to I've always supported no deal.

The thing I’ve noticed with Remainers is they tend to live in a fantasy world where everyone wants to buy each other a coke.

No deal is part of getting a good deal, they are symbiotic.

If you have never been in commercial style negations before I guess the principle can be difficult to accept and I can see why those who haven’t can be confused by those who understand the necessary hard headed negotiating tactics.

 

[Chicken Run]

The thing I’ve noticed with Remainers is they tend to live in a fantasy world where everyone wants to buy each other a coke.

No deal is part of getting a good deal, they are symbiotic.

If you have never been in commercial style negations before I guess the principle can be difficult to accept and I can see why those who haven’t can be confused by those who understand the necessary hard headed negotiating tactics.

The thing I’ve noticed either vociferous passionate leavers and remainers is that I don’t see them out on the streets, only the same olds on here and on the news, it seems most average people whatever they voted for quietly get on with their lives.

The only time I see “Gammons” & Radishes (angry remainers) is in here [emoji23]

 

[WATFORD zero]

The thing I’ve noticed with Remainers is they tend to live in a fantasy world where everyone wants to buy each other a coke.

No deal is part of getting a good deal, they are symbiotic.

If you have never been in commercial style negations before I guess the principle can be difficult to accept and I can see why those who haven’t can be confused by those who understand the necessary hard headed negotiating tactics.

We always put our best performing commercial negotiators in the compliance department too

 

[WATFORD zero]

You are polluting this thread with your prejudices. Try the Brexit thread, this one is not for you.

Maybe you should get a mod to change the title to 'The Brexit Good News thread' to make it clearer that only prejudices of a certain persuasion are allowed.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Maybe you should get a mod to change the title to 'The Brexit Good News thread' to make it clearer that only prejudices of a certain persuasion are allowed.

Read the thread title again. You are the epitome of the type of person who drove me away from the Brexit thread. You just can’t resist derailing other threads, can you. That’s me done here.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Decent thread 'til the likes of bitter GAP turn up and head it towards The Bear Pit.

 

[Chicken Run]

Read the thread title again. You are the epitome of the type of person who drove me away from the Brexit thread. You just can’t resist derailing other threads, can you. That’s me done here.

Don’t let him get to you, he’ll be along soon to tell you he’s moved his portfolios around and Brexit proofed himself with the help of his special advisors, I knew when [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] started this thread with a clear thread title, he’d be along like the annoying unpopular bully in the playground wanting to get involved [emoji6]

 

[cunning fergus]

My twitter feed is full of remain people wondering if any Brexit people have regrets. I am genuinely interested to see if they're right. I really don't want this descending into a binfest because even I've had enough of discussing the rights and wrongs of it so here is the general Brexit discussion:
https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?343854-The-Brexit-Thread

In the meantime, I'm genuinely interested to know what Brexiteers feel about Brexit now that we are a few years down the line, with no deal looming (not what was promised) - without the sort of bitching and sniping characterised by the main thread

No regrets, but sadness and surprise at those who have yet to accept the outcome.

Surprise because I never thought we (as a nation) was so deeply embittered and defeatist.

Sadness because the depth of embitterment and defeatism will ensure whatever the outcome Brexit will likely be a unreconcilable wound in the social, economic and political construct of the country for my lifetime and beyond.

Brexit will be positive for some and negative for some, but overall, it’s up to us all to choose what horse we want to ride. Not trying to be profound but challenges need to be overcome, otherwise you will be defeated by them.

Time moves forward, never backwards.

 

[Weststander]

Not sure those polls show it was not a left v right thing. All the left leaning parties voted majority remain and the right leaning ones voted majority leave?

Crikey, 42% of Tory voters voted Remain, 37% of Labour Brexit.

We know huge swathes of Labour seat areas in Wales, the Midlands and the North were Brexit strongholds. Some key trade union leaders were against our membership of the EU.

It really wasn’t the neat right wing-left wing spilt in your head.