Watch an expert explode the myths about Islam! - Essential viewing for many on here.

[Gregory2Smith1]

I live in a western country and dislike many things that my governments do. Luckily though I don't see that the actions of those governments define me or my country.

Disagreeing with and recognising the way your country acts is very different to despising what it stands for.

Do you believe that Bush and Blair's (and Howard's for that matter) war in Iraq represents what the US UK and Australia stand for?

what's the difference?

 

[BadFish]

No I dont, its a highly selective collection of half truths ad falsehoods.

So your belief is that Isis et al are representative of Islam as a whole?

 

[BadFish]

what's the difference?

I believe that Australia 'stands for' many things. Getting involved in an illegal war is not one of them.

Do you think the UK is defined by its involvement in the Iraq war?

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

I believe that Australia 'stands for' many things. Getting involved in an illegal war is not one of them.

Do you think the UK is defined by its involvement in the Iraq war?

Vietnam

 

[portlock seagull]

I'm British, I adore European people and culture. However I despise how our governments will continually ally with the imperialist ruling classes, particularly in the USA, keeping so much of the world in poverty, literally destroying entire nations, all for monetary gain - while at the same time making even our lives more difficult and less prosperous as each year passes. I think Western people can do a lot more to stop our oligarch rulers getting away with this, it is what is truly the great evil of the 21st century, not Islam

Youre entitled to such a view, but isn't this one of the great Arabic follies - wanting their cake and eat it all the time? Wealth that's not shared? Freedom unless you're a woman? And so on. One thing you cannot surely argue is that "our oligarch rulers" are "more evil" than "their oligarch rulers"? Arab States since before time have been ruled by strongmen (cleopatra a side!) ruthlessly suppressing any who dare oppose. And look at the mess since the Arab spring? Rich have always crapped on the poor. Always have. Always will. In every country. I think it's naive to think Arab countries would do any different. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. Perhaps visit Western countries on holiday , to enjoy the culture as you say, and base yourself in an Arabic state for a few years to test your theories?

It's bizarre so many British ethnics are so angry at the country of their birthright and spend so much time and energy moaning about perceived injustices abroad when the facts are they'd have a bloody rude awakening if they lived in thecountries they piously self-champion as victims of western policy. It really is living life through rose coloured glasses. I'd thank my lucky stars and get on with contributing to the country I was born in and enjoying the live I've been blessed with by being born here. Who was it said they'd won the natural lottery by being born british? And if you're an albion fan too...surely that's a rollover win? What's not to love about this country?!!

 

[BadFish]

Vietnam

Yes they were involved in Vietnam and Iraq. I am not denying that they have got involved in wars. I am saying that getting involved is not what Australia 'stand for' in my opinion. I dislike the action but do not despise what Australia 'stands for'.

 

[BadFish]

Youre entitled to such a view, but isn't this one of the great Arabic follies - wanting their cake and eat it all the time? Wealth that's not shared? Freedom unless you're a woman? And so on. One thing you cannot surely argue is that "our oligarch rulers" are "more evil" than "their oligarch rulers"? Arab States since before time have been ruled by strongmen (cleopatra a side!) ruthlessly suppressing any who dare oppose. And look at the mess since the Arab spring? Rich have always crapped on the poor. Always have. Always will. In every country. I think it's naive to think Arab countries would do any different. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. Perhaps visit Western countries on holiday , to enjoy the culture as you say, and base yourself in an Arabic state for a few years to test your theories?

It's bizarre so many British ethnics are so angry at the country of their birthright and spend so much time and energy moaning about perceived injustices abroad when the facts are they'd have a bloody rude awakening if they lived in thecountries they piously self-champion as victims of western policy. It really is living life through rose coloured glasses. I'd thank my lucky stars and get on with contributing to the country I was born in and enjoying the live I've been blessed with by being born here. Who was it said they'd won the natural lottery by being born british? And if you're an albion fan too...surely that's a rollover win? What's not to love about this country?!!

There are plenty of things not to love about Western Culture and to ignore them because there are other countries around the world that are worse off is pure folly.

The wealth gap is getting wider, the rich richer and the poor poorer while dragging the middle class down into poverty also. This is happening purely through the greed of the ruling classes and their cronies. Am I really supposed to ignore this because those same ruling classes and their cronies have forced a whole load of other people into a worse situation across the other side of the world?

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

Yes they were involved in Vietnam and Iraq. I am not denying that they have got involved in wars. I am saying that getting involved is not what Australia 'stand for' in my opinion. I dislike the action but do not despise what Australia 'stands for'.

I'm not following?

Australia gets involved with wars that have nothing to do with them,so what exactly does it 'stand for'

 

[BadFish]

I'm not following?

Australia gets involved with wars that have nothing to do with them,so what exactly does it 'stand for'

It stands for many many things.

Surely what a country stands for or is defined by is highly subjective?

The point I am making is that I define Australia (and the UK for that matter) by many many things, their involvement in illegal wars is not one of them.

I am guessing you do?

To put it another way: if i made my list of 1000 things that define Australia, fighting illegal war would not appear


So to disagree with those wars is not the same as "despising all it stands for"

 

[Soulman]

So your belief is that Isis et al are representative of Islam as a whole?

And this post is what it all boils down to really. It's the fall back post against anybody that criticizes the behaviour of some Muslims.
It does not matter how many times people state that they despise the extremists, radicals, the people that behead, stone, treat women badly and young girls...that is enough for people like you to generalise and accuse others of not liking the everybody who follows Islam....the seed is then sown eh.
If this ploy fails, well let's turn it around to the way the West have behaved, even though in a lot of countries where Muslims are killing the West is not involved.
I wish that the UK were not involved with these conflicts in the Middle East, but those that deplore the killings by the Taliban, Saddam in Iraq etc were soon bleating when nothing was being done in Bosnia at first, and recently when nothing was being done in Syria (where is Martyn 20 now?) so the West is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
Try googling what is happening in Denmark and Sweden (you are alright Bruce in OZ atm) both very liberal and welcoming, and you might understand why some of us have concerns about the direction England is taking......of course it is a fairly small minority of extremists/radicals....but let's not take our eye of the ball and sweep it under the carpet for fear of highlighting it because it may offend.
Then again we can as iv'e said, just generalise and say that anybody that broaches the subject are saying it is " representative of Islam as a whole".

 

[BadFish]

And this post is what it all boils down to really. It's the fall back post against anybody that criticizes the behaviour of some Muslims.
It does not matter how many times people state that they despise the extremists, radicals, the people that behead, stone, treat women badly and young girls...that is enough for people like you to generalise and accuse others of not liking the everybody who follows Islam....the seed is then sown eh.
If this ploy fails, well let's turn it around to the way the West have behaved, even though in a lot of countries where Muslims are killing the West is not involved.
I wish that the UK were not involved with these conflicts in the Middle East, but those that deplore the killings by the Taliban, Saddam in Iraq etc were soon bleating when nothing was being done in Bosnia at first, and recently when nothing was being done in Syria (where is Martyn 20 now?) so the West is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
Try googling what is happening in Denmark and Sweden (you are alright Bruce in OZ atm) both very liberal and welcoming, and you might understand why some of us have concerns about the direction England is taking......of course it is a fairly small minority of extremists/radicals....but let's not take our eye of the ball and sweep it under the carpet for fear of highlighting it because it may offend.
Then again we can as iv'e said, just generalise and say that anybody that broaches the subject are saying it is " representative of Islam as a whole".

"They love a ruck"

I was referring to Looneys saying he disagrees with the main thrust of the argument. That is the main thrust of the argument and I just wanted to confirm that he disagrees with it.

I am never quite sure if you do our not because you make comments like the one above and then distance yourself from them.

 

[Soulman]

"They all like a ruck"

If you had read the context and wording as to why i stated "ruck"
Quote Soulman ".and you could say, perhaps in a polite and non confrontational way......that they love a ruck."
I realised with people like you that i sometimes have to dampen the statement, so as not to offend.

"They all like a ruck" was misquoted by you...... see me for lines

 

[Soulman]

"They love a ruck"

I was referring to Looneys saying he disagrees with the main thrust of the argument. That is the main thrust of the argument and I just wanted to confirm that he disagrees with it.

I am never quite sure if you do our not because you make comments like the one above and then distance yourself from them.

Well you do tend to throw similar accusations at others that tend to highlight points about certain parts of Islam....you have previous.

BTW, not sure what you mean here quote BF "I am never quite sure if you do our not because you make comments like the one above and then distance yourself from them"

 

[portlock seagull]

There are plenty of things not to love about Western Culture and to ignore them because there are other countries around the world that are worse off is pure folly.

The wealth gap is getting wider, the rich richer and the poor poorer while dragging the middle class down into poverty also. This is happening purely through the greed of the ruling classes and their cronies. Am I really supposed to ignore this because those same ruling classes and their cronies have forced a whole load of other people into a worse situation across the other side of the world?

Errr, right. I mean, eh?

 

[BadFish]

Well you do tend to throw similar accusations at others that tend to highlight points about certain parts of Islam....you have previous.

BTW, not sure what you mean here quote BF "I am never quite sure if you do our not because you make comments like the one above and then distance yourself from them"

Put that together with the other 90%+ Muslim countries that are killing, like Yemen, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, and Afghanistan, Iraq etc where they have been killing each other for years.......and you could say, perhaps in a polite and non confrontational way......that they love a ruck.

Just to quote you fully. (sorry i was on my phone getting ready for work, fixed it now though)

Are you saying I was wrong to assume that you were referring to Muslims when you said 'they love a ruck?

What about the 90%+ of Muslim countries that are killing? What is that referring to?

 

[Soulman]

Just to quote you fully. (sorry i was on my phone getting ready for work, fixed it now though)

Are you saying I was wrong to assume that you were referring to Muslims when you said 'they love a ruck?

What about the 90%+ of Muslim countries that are killing? What is that referring to?

The countries that i mentioned where they are killing each other have a population that consists of 90%+ Muslims. So you were right to assume i mean't the Muslims love (put in polite terms) a ruck.
The in fighting and killing shows no let up in these types of countries, trouble is many are leaving and trying to cause unrest in minority Muslim countries.

 

[BadFish]

The countries that i mentioned where they are killing each other have a population that consists of 90%+ Muslims. So you were right to assume i mean't the Muslims love (put in polite terms) a ruck.
The in fighting and killing shows no let up in these types of countries, trouble is many are leaving and trying to cause unrest in minority Muslim countries.

So you are in fact generalising? as only 35% of Muslims live in those countries. What about the other 65%?

You can't make any sound conclusion about a group of people based on 35% of their numbers. Especially when it is a huge stretch to assume that all 35% (or anywhere near all) 'love a ruck'

Like I said, even if all people that love a ruck are Muslims that doesn't mean that all Muslims love a ruck.

 

[Soulman]

So you are in fact generalising? as only 35% of Muslims live in those countries. What about the other 65%?

You can't make any sound conclusion about a group of people based on 35% of their numbers. Especially when it is a huge stretch to assume that all 35% (or anywhere near all) 'love a ruck'

Like I said, even if all people that love a ruck are Muslims that doesn't mean that all Muslims love a ruck.

Oh dear silly me, i forgot (i suppose i shall have to include it in every post) to add some Muslims.
I have mentioned it many times before, in fact if you took the trouble to read them, even in a post a little earlier tonight.
So once again eh.
Quote Soulman 21-42 post 114
"And this post is what it all boils down to really. It's the fall back post against anybody that criticizes the behaviour of some Muslims."
and
".of course it is a fairly small minority of extremists/radicals....but let's not take our eye of the ball and sweep it under the carpet for fear of highlighting it because it may offend.
Then again we can as iv'e said, just generalise and say that anybody that broaches the subject are saying it is " representative of Islam as a whole".

 

[somerset]

Two points to make here.

Firstly - these conflicts in Muslim countries are obviously not fought by typical civilians, who just want to get on with their lives. Generalising the actions of Jihadists and militia, who make up less than 1% of these populations, onto regular people is not in any way accurate.

Secondly - Western nations have killed far more, all around the world, especially in Middle Eastern nations, than even the taliban or ISIS have or ever will. If those people were to generalise Western peoples in the same way - who murder in the name of oil, money and an imperialist interpretation of democracy - what would they think of us?

Yawn

I never mentioned just Muslim countries.

Less than 1%...... Random made up stat alert.

Typical Mustafa 'must dilute the debate with anti western rhetoric at all costs'.

 

[Soulman]

Yawn

I never mentioned just Muslim countries.

Less than 1%...... Random made up stat alert.

Typical Mustafa 'must dilute the debate with anti western rhetoric at all costs'.

It's known as the fall back or safe deflection stance, BF has implemented it as well tonight. Meanwhile "some", a minority, radicals, extremists are causing havoc.