Uber, another company sucking money out of the UK.

[Bozza]

a) you could never "hail" a mini cab in London, only a black cab. Uber effectively allows you to hail from your phone, changing the market conditions
b) Drivers getting 80% is all very well but they can't plan their shifts all the time can they so it's 80% of a moving target
c) Even if Uber are not in profit their VC backers will be and they will be avoiding tax as much as possible - though granted that's capitalism in general for you and I'd rather have that than Brand's socialism.

a) We weren't just talking about London, but 'calling' a Uber by pressing a button on your phone is just an easier way of calling a minicab using your phone (and your voice).
b) No idea what you're saying.
c) VCs lose out on plenty of businesses they invest in that bomb. Now and again they strike a unicorn like Uber. Sometimes they miss striking gold too. Regardless are we now trying to figure out if VCs pay tax on their investments?

 

[Nibble]

From what I can see Uber do not pay Tax in the UK. They pay Dutch corporation tax. They really should be forced to have a London License base and to pay UK tax.
I imagine Bozza, this is why it nigh on impossible to get hold of any published UK profit figures. They seem to not be under any obligation to declare their UK profit.
They operate in the UK yet are not obliged to pay corporation tax. Hardly seems fair does it?
Don't make enough profit to send abroad? Haha! Really, pull the other one.

 

[Bozza]

From what I can see Uber do not pay Tax in the UK. They pay Dutch corporation tax. They really should be forced to have a London License base and to pay UK tax.
I imagine Bozza, this is why it nigh on impossible to get hold of any published UK profit figures. They seem to not be under any obligation to declare their UK profit.
They operate in the UK yet are not obliged to pay corporation tax. Hardly seems fair does it?
Don't make enough profit to send abroad? Haha! Really, pull the other one.

Guessing and making it up. Understood, although I expected better of you Nibble.

 

[Guinness Boy]

a) We weren't just talking about London, but 'calling' a Uber by pressing a button on your phone is just an easier way of calling a minicab using your phone (and your voice).

Then there really should be no need for the app. Just ring a mini cab and job done. The fact the app is successful points to the fact that it has changed the way people use taxis without a change in the regulations, punishing people who have spent years studying the knowledge. But, yes, outside of London that's not true which is why I said I'd use the service in Brighton but not London.

b) No idea what you're saying.

Really? It's this. Uber drivers are not guaranteed shifts. They may get 80% of the fare but 80% of sod all is sod all. The less you earn the less tax you contribute.

c) VCs lose out on plenty of businesses they invest in that bomb. Now and again they strike a unicorn like Uber. Sometimes they miss striking gold too. Regardless are we now trying to figure out if VCs pay tax on their investments?

True enough

 

[Nibble]

Guessing and making it up. Understood, although I expected better of you Nibble.

I'm not sure what's got your goat about this. It's a fact that Uber don't pay UK tax. The only debatable part of it is whether this is deemed against UK tax law or not. Margeret Hodge lodged a complaint with HMRC in 2014 urging them to investigate this matter.

Like I state, these are the facts. Whether or not they contravene UK tax law is not for me to say. I will say I believe it's thoroughly unfair they are allowed to operate in this manner, legality aside.

 

[Bozza]

Then there really should be no need for the app.

Why do we have TV remotes - there was no need - we could get up and walk over to the TV and press a button.

Why do we have phones? If we wanted to speak to someone we could visit them and speak to them in person.

Planes? Ridiculous when we have ships to carry us great distances.

WiFi? Outrageous. Just what was the problem with hard wiring to a modem?

Really? It's this. Uber drivers are not guaranteed shifts. They may get 80% of the fare but 80% of sod all is sod all. The less you earn the less tax you contribute.

Has anything changed here? Are any cabbies or minicab drivers guaranteed shifts? And if any are, are they guaranteed income in those shifts? Those I know go out when they fancy it and come home when they fancy it. If it's quiet they knock off early, if it's busy they might stay out longer.

 

[Nibble]

For what it's worth I think the drivers get a good deal. I'm sure they simply wouldn't do it if they couldn't make money , who would. My beef with Uber is their tax structure.

 

[beorhthelm]

Stop being disingenuous. Maybe google The Uber Economy and then google Black Cab Economy. One will return meaningful results and the other won't. They are a by-word for a shift in the labour market to the degree that there was a large feature on the effect on the Today programme this morning.

its not at all disingenuous. if there is an example of creating a shift to zero-hours and non-salary work, then the taxi business has to be one of the worst ones, as it has always been dominated by self-employed, zero-hours, freelance non-salary work. i cant see any reason why moving semi-skilled workers into lucrative self-employed work is considered a negative.

 

[The Spanish]

wouldnt use uber. why is everything "over priced" or a "rip off"? Generally, things are what they cost plus a little bit more on top and people work hard. I am always wary of people who throw the rip off or over priced phrases around, sitting in a cab jockeying people around all day who think you are somehow fleecing them rather than you just trying to make a living cannot be much fun.

Good luck to you if you want a race to the bottom just so you can get a taxi (of sorts) rather than the bus your wallet and your mentality is telling you to.


Theres loads of people nicking a living in Britain but cabbies tend not to be them.

It's not Uber that will kill black cabs, its us. Good luck to you if you think chipping away at a great institution is OK as you cannot bear to pay someone a living wage, or you expect me to subisdise your cheap uber taxi through tax credits, but I wont be part of it.

 

[middletoenail]

It's great when on holiday, specifically in a country like China where the cab drivers speak little or no English. No need to use cash either, billed straight to your credit card. I use them a lot, and will continue to do so all the time they are cheaper.

 

[Arthur]

b) Drivers getting 80% is all very well but they can't plan their shifts all the time can they so it's 80% of a moving target

Really? I was under the impression they were self employed so they work as an when they want. For times when people don't want to work (Sunday afternoons for example) Uber dangle the carrot of X% more on the fare to get their drivers on the road and earning.

Speaking to a driver the other week he was telling me he needs to clear £350 a week to cover his costs (pretty much all the cars in London are leased hybrids from what I can gather) then whatever he makes on top of that is straight into his pocket so he can choose to work as little or as much as he sees fit.

 

[Nibble]

Of course, the problem with them abroad, fine if your on a business trip and want to get somewhere quick, no fuss, etc but I've had some great experiences abroad by talking to and subsequently employing the driver for a few days. Meals at their family house, trips out to restaurants only locals know about, driven to nightclubs and all night bars only the local drivers know about.
Quick and convenient, yes. Interesting and making the most of being abroad, no.

 

[StonehamPark]

From what I can see Uber do not pay Tax in the UK. They pay Dutch corporation tax. They really should be forced to have a London License base and to pay UK tax.
I imagine Bozza, this is why it nigh on impossible to get hold of any published UK profit figures. They seem to not be under any obligation to declare their UK profit.
They operate in the UK yet are not obliged to pay corporation tax. Hardly seems fair does it?

Guessing and making it up. Understood, although I expected better of you Nibble.

To be fair, Nibble's spot on here.

I've just looked at the returns and it appears to me as though Uber have not filed anything in the UK in the past 2 years.

That being said, the self-employed Uber staff will be filing their own UK taxes, however the 20%(?) that Uber makes per-fare, is sent out to their head offices/accounts in Amsterdam.

So I'm guessing the issue Nibble might have here, is that Uber should be filing the tax from the 20% remainder of the fare in the UK?

 

[Nibble]

Of course, the problem with them abroad, fine if your on a business trip and want to get somewhere quick, no fuss, etc but I've had some great experiences abroad by talking to and subsequently employing the driver for a few days. Meals at their family house, trips out to restaurants only locals know about, driven to nightclubs and all night bars only the local drivers know about.
Quick and convenient, yes. Interesting and making the most of being abroad, no.

 

[Guinness Boy]

its not at all disingenuous. if there is an example of creating a shift to zero-hours and non-salary work, then the taxi business has to be one of the worst ones, as it has always been dominated by self-employed, zero-hours, freelance non-salary work. i cant see any reason why moving semi-skilled workers into lucrative self-employed work is considered a negative.

It's not always lucrative. Plenty of people in other professions have seen zero hours contracts drop their salary. And I guess no one should be worried about a free lance market for doctors.

 

[BigGully]

Loved reading this thread, no point to make not sure what Uber is.

But to see Nibble coming back from taking a pounding on the ropes and now back in the fight with a renewed spring in his step, is exciting.

Think he is back in the fight ......................where have the big hitters gone ..... Bozza, Arthur

 

[Guinness Boy]

Really? I was under the impression they were self employed so they work as an when they want. For times when people don't want to work (Sunday afternoons for example) Uber dangle the carrot of X% more on the fare to get their drivers on the road and earning.

Speaking to a driver the other week he was telling me he needs to clear £350 a week to cover his costs (pretty much all the cars in London are leased hybrids from what I can gather) then whatever he makes on top of that is straight into his pocket so he can choose to work as little or as much as he sees fit.

They're contractors. Uber has a ratio of 80 to 1 contractors to FTEs. The more they add the less share there is for everyone else. As Uber gains market share the amount per shift earned by cabbies will reduce.

http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/13/in-the-future-employees-wont-exist/#.kp7fkp:aJDZ

And Uber contractors in New York already struggle to make minimum wage.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uber-...king-less-than-minimum-wage-2014-10?r=US&IR=T

 

[beorhthelm]

My beef with Uber is their tax structure.

so what about the wider corporate tax exports, say VW, Apple, Sony. they send their revenues and taxes abroad too, maybe not all in all cases (Apple bad example: they are doing the opposite sitting on massive cash piles rather than repatriate them to US, to avoid tax). and many UK companies import their foreign revenues and taxes here, often overlooked. secondly, you make a massive assumption that there are profits to tax. i'll agree you'd expect them to, but looking around there's little evidence of profit at this point. as much as i find that astonishing, if they are spending the cash, where is it spent? probably mostly marketing, so revenue is pouring back into the economy.

so in short, we dont really know that Uber is "sucking money of the UK", and if they are, if its much to worry about.

 

[beorhthelm]

It's not always lucrative. Plenty of people in other professions have seen zero hours contracts drop their salary. And I guess no one should be worried about a free lance market for doctors.

so you want to make a gargantuan leap from self employed cabbies to freelance doctors in India? not knowing the local employment model for doctors, i dont know if thats any change for them either. yes, if there are industries where workers are being forced into a self-employed, freelance status by adoption of match-making apps, thats probably detrimental to them. however if those apps are used to create new employment opportunities that's something to be applauded.

 

[GOM]

They're contractors. Uber has a ratio of 80 to 1 contractors to FTEs. The more they add the less share there is for everyone else. As Uber gains market share the amount per shift earned by cabbies will reduce.

http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/13/in-the-future-employees-wont-exist/#.kp7fkp:aJDZ

And Uber contractors in New York already struggle to make minimum wage.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uber-...king-less-than-minimum-wage-2014-10?r=US&IR=T

..and what's the difference there to mini-cab or private licence hire companies/drivers