[Brighton] Two Brighton & Hove Labour Cllrs Expelled!

[Herr Tubthumper]

Sources - explain

Because the law says quite explicitly it is for acts carried out by the councillor in his official duties

The source is the Code of Conduct. You have cherry-picked a paragraph which deals with acting in the specific role. The previous page states this:

Building on these principles, the following general principles have been developed specifically for the role of Councillor.

In accordance with the public trust placed in me, on all occasions:

• I act with integrity and honesty
• I act lawfully
• I treat all persons fairly and with respect
• I lead by example and act in a way that secures public confidence in the role of Councillor

“On all occasions” is pretty clear.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Haven’t got a clue what you are on about. I haven’t post any jokes anywhere since being a councillor & no-one has found any joke that I have post in my 56 years pre councillor as offensive.

You’re weird.

 

[Zeberdi]

The source is the Code of Conduct. You have cherry-picked a paragraph which deals with acting in the specific role. The previous page states this:

Building on these principles, the following general principles have been developed specifically for the role of Councillor.

In accordance with the public trust placed in me, on all occasions:

• I act with integrity and honesty
• I act lawfully
• I treat all persons fairly and with respect
• I lead by example and act in a way that secures public confidence in the role of Councillor

“On all occasions” is pretty clear.

I refer you to the Assessment Criteria the Council apply to decide whether they have jurisdiction to investigate a breach of the CoC in my previous post.

You are literally incorrect on this. I have a background in Local Government experience for many years both as a candidate in local elections for two different political parties and a background in law. I have also, since moving to Norfolk, been working with the Mayor and other Councillors to apply this CoC for years to a particular Councillor whose behaviour in his private life is unfitting for a public servant - we all know that but have not been able to do anything under the CoC - because ’On all occasions’ refers to when that the individual is acting in their role as a Councillor - ie when carrying out those public duties.

I posted the Assessment Criteria above and part of the first test is to establish whether the Councillor was acting in his official capacity… or, led the public to believe he was - if not, the Council can not proceed with a CoC complaint and they are quite strict on this.

The primary source is not the Code of Conduct that all Councils must adopt but the Localism Act 2011 which does NOT legislate over the private lives of citizens - I think you are conflating the role/work carried out by a Councillor with someone who is a Councillor per se - it is not cherry picking’ to say the Code of Conduct applies to only the normal course of duties of a councillor or where the public is led to believe he/she was acting in his capacity as a Councillor - it is the fundamental rationale of the Law.

It is not for example, the role of a Councillor to go shopping for his wife in the supermarket after his Council meetings, nor is it his role to go to watch Brighton play football (unless he is going in an official capacity ), nor is it the role of a Councillor to cut his back lawn on a Sunday morning - what ever he or she does on those occasions is subject to any laws that you or I live by.

So no, “occassions’ refers to all occassions where the Councilor is acting in his role as Councillor not on all occasions of his life in general.

On all occasions” is pretty clear.

Hope that makes sense.

(If you can provide an example however, where a Councillor has been sanctioned for a breach of the Code of Conduct when they were acting in a private life capacity, of course that will further your argument but I think you will be hard pushed to find one.)

 

[Zeberdi]

Only a few days previously we were on the same committee that consists of three councillors & there wasn’t a whiff of a reason of stepping down. Very sad. And very sad that Labour councillor’s have kept shtum.

I suspect it might in part have something to do with the Council’s Proposal to close St Peter’s Community School in Portslade and the nursery - but rather than anything underhand, the little I knew Les back in my days as a locally active Party member, is he is a man of strong principle so perhaps stepping down at this time is actually a matter of both age, integrity and the sense of dedicated service he has to his ward residents.

Portslade school closure would leave Fishersgate kids in limbo, parents say

The closure of a Portslade school will leave children on the wrong side of town in limbo, parents say. About

www.brightonandhovenews.org

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Just imagine being a councillor that is so very needy, that they feel comfortable popping on NSC and making a tit of themselves, with monotonous regularity. Quite incredible, really.

It's an unwritten rule prospective and elected councillors have to do this. After all, the other Tory halfwit that used to post here did exactly the same.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I refer you to the Assessment Criteria the Council apply to decide whether they have jurisdiction to investigate a breach of the CoC in my previous post.

You are literally incorrect on this. I have a background in Local Government experience for many years both as a candidate in local elections for two different political parties and a background in law. I have also, since moving to Norfolk, been working with the Mayor and other Councillors to apply this CoC for years to a particular Councillor whose behaviour in his private life is unfitting for a public servant - we all know that but have not been able to do anything under the CoC - because ’On all occasions’ refers to when that the individual is acting in their role as a Councillor - ie when carrying out those public duties.

I posted the Assessment Criteria above and part of the first test is to establish whether the Councillor was acting in his official capacity… or, led the public to believe he was - if not, the Council can not proceed with a CoC complaint and they are quite strict on this.

The primary source is not the Code of Conduct that all Councils must adopt but the Localism Act 2011 which does NOT legislate over the private lives of citizens - I think you are conflating the role/work carried out by a Councillor with someone who is a Councillor per se - it is not cherry picking’ to say the Code of Conduct applies to only the normal course of duties of a councillor or where the public is led to believe he/she was acting in his capacity as a Councillor - it is the fundamental rationale of the Law.

It is not for example, the role of a Councillor to go shopping for his wife in the supermarket after his Council meetings, nor is it his role to go to watch Brighton play football (unless he is going in an official capacity ), nor is it the role of a Councillor to cut his back lawn on a Sunday morning - what ever he or she does on those occasions is subject to any laws that you or I live by.

So no, “occassions’ refers to all occassions where the Councilor is acting in his role as Councillor not on all occasions of his life in general.


Hope that makes sense.

(If you can provide an example however, where a Councillor has been sanctioned for a breach of the Code of Conduct when they were acting in a private life capacity, of course that will further your argument but I think you will be hard pushed to find one.)

This is an interesting discussion.

You seem vastly experienced in this matter; what is your view on this example? I remember this, where a councilor was found to be in breach of Pendle Councils code of conduct for posts on a personal Facebook account. Doesn’t this demonstrate the code goes beyond just activities in the role as a councilor?

“I also consider that a councillor who allows such an inappropriate post to stand on their Facebook page or passes it on to other users is acting in breach of the Council’s Code of Conduct. In my view it is a failure to treat people with respect and falls short of the high standards of leadership and example expected of all councillors. This is even more the case when the councillor holds or has held high office.”

https://www.pendle.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/20907/item_4_-_investigation_report

The Pendle Code, whilst different, is similar in wording to Brighton’s in wording as well as structure.

 

[Hugo Rune]

I suspect it might in part have something to do with the Council’s Proposal to close St Peter’s Community School in Portslade and the nursery - but rather than anything underhand, the little I knew Les back in my days as a locally active Party member, is he is a man of strong principle so perhaps stepping down at this time is actually a matter of both age, integrity and the sense of dedicated service he has to his ward residents.

Portslade school closure would leave Fishersgate kids in limbo, parents say

The closure of a Portslade school will leave children on the wrong side of town in limbo, parents say. About

www.brightonandhovenews.org

That’s a shame.

The council had to close some schools with over 600 empty places on primary schools across a city that many young families can’t afford to buy a house in. They have tried to sort this problem (which has been festering out of control for years) but there has to be some victims sadly.

 

[Zeberdi]

This is an interesting discussion.

You seem vastly experienced in this matter; what is your view on this example? I remember this, where a councilor was found to be in breach of Pendle Councils code of conduct for posts on a personal Facebook account. Doesn’t this demonstrate the code goes beyond just activities in the role as a councilor?

“I also consider that a councillor who allows such an inappropriate post to stand on their Facebook page or passes it on to other users is acting in breach of the Council’s Code of Conduct. In my view it is a failure to treat people with respect and falls short of the high standards of leadership and example expected of all councillors. This is even more the case when the councillor holds or has held high office.”

https://www.pendle.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/20907/item_4_-_investigation_report

The Pendle Code, whilst different, is similar in wording to Brighton’s in wording as well as structure.

Was her Facebook account in the name of Councillor Rosemary Caroll or just ’Rosemary Carol’?

Many Councillors use Facebook accounts to enable them to do their work as councillors (as do most politicians). It is a way to be engaged with the public, keep residents up to date and post political information etc - they are encouraged to do so but those type of accounts are considered part of their role as Councillors because they are posting material under the epithet of being a councillor- so everything published on those pages therefore is within the purview of the CoC.

Social media guidance for councillors

We have produced a series of written and video guides to support councillors in using social media.

www.local.gov.uk

Sorry I don’t have time to get into further arguments with you on this in the next few days as I am really busy so I can only repeat again that the CoC only applies to Councillors acting or appearing to act in the role as Councilors and does not apply to non-councillor related activity contrary to what you keep stating on this thread.

“How can I complain about a local councillor?​

All local councillors must agree to comply with an agreed Code of Conduct for Members whenever they are acting/ appearing to act in an official capacity. Brighton & Hove City Council’s Code of Conduct for Members is available here code of conduct (updated 15 July 2021).”

I’m guessing you live in Germany but I am sure, even if you are not a resident of the UK, you could email the monitoring officer at the Legal Services department at Brighton Council who can convince you of this further in a way I seem unable to.

legal.services@brighton-hove.gov.uk

 

[Cordwainer]

Haven’t got a clue what you are on about. I haven’t post any jokes anywhere since being a councillor & no-one has found any joke that I have post in my 56 years pre councillor as offensive.

Shouldn’t you be doing some politics rather than attention seeking posting on a football club internet forum?

 

[Bakero]

Was her Facebook account in the name of Councillor Rosemary Caroll or just ’Rosemary Carol’?

Many Councillors use Facebook accounts to enable them to do their work as councillors (as do most politicians). It is a way to be engaged with the public, keep residents up to date and post political information etc - they are encouraged to do so but those type of accounts are considered part of their role as Councillors because they are posting material under the epithet of being a councillor- so everything published on those pages therefore is within the purview of the CoC.

Social media guidance for councillors

We have produced a series of written and video guides to support councillors in using social media.

www.local.gov.uk

Sorry I don’t have time to get into further arguments with you on this in the next few days as I am really busy so I can only repeat again that the CoC only applies to Councillors acting or appearing to act in the role as Councilors and does not apply to non-councillor related activity contrary to what you keep stating on this thread.

“How can I complain about a local councillor?​

All local councillors must agree to comply with an agreed Code of Conduct for Members whenever they are acting/ appearing to act in an official capacity. Brighton & Hove City Council’s Code of Conduct for Members is available here code of conduct (updated 15 July 2021).”

I’m guessing you live in Germany but I am sure, even if you are not a resident of the UK, you could email the monitoring officer at the Legal Services department at Brighton Council who can convince you of this further in a way I seem unable to.

legal.services@brighton-hove.gov.uk

Surely, the reality is that any councillor would be ousted if their behaviour in their personal life was truly inappropriate.

Like this UKIP bloome in Redditch https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/28/ukip-councillor-sacked-newly-elected

Or this Haverfordwest Tory https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2023...raws-from-party-after-alleged-racist-comments


Or this Worthing "White Genocide" whackjob https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-suspended-over-alleged-support-of-far-right

 

[Seagull58]

Weird comment. Cllr Theobald (Conservative) & I were the only two councillors in the City to complement Les Hamilton on Brighton & Hove News. Not one Labour councillor! There was a response on X but very sad that none of the Labour lot could say some nice words after 50+ years of service

Do you mean "compliment"?

 

[chickens]

Say what you like about @Steve Foster, he’s certainly increasing the level of political engagement among the general membership of NSC, albeit not entirely in the Conservative Party’s favour.

I feel sorry for @Chicken Run, who was quite reasonably trying to point out that there can be shenanigans on the other side of the political divide too, but possibly went too early when there wasn’t any information to discuss.

We can come back to this once we know whether the allegations are upheld. It seems a bizarre own goal if true. I can’t imagine there are a lack of individuals willing to represent Labour locally, which begs the question as to why the regional party felt the need to get involved.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Say what you like about @Steve Foster, he’s certainly increasing the level of political engagement among the general membership of NSC, albeit not entirely in the Conservative Party’s favour.

I feel sorry for @Chicken Run, who was quite reasonably trying to point out that there can be shenanigans on the other side of the political divide too, but possibly went too early when there wasn’t any information to discuss.

We can come back to this once we know whether the allegations are upheld. It seems a bizarre own goal if true. I can’t imagine there are a lack of individuals willing to represent Labour locally, which begs the question as to why the regional party felt the need to get involved.

I love the way Ivan comes in, all guns blazing, with complete lack of awareness, shoots himself in both feet, shoots the OP in both feet who is, ironically, trying to find issues with the same opposition. With complete incompetence and idiocy on that level, I suspect he believes he will make the cabinet

 

[Chicken Run]

This is an interesting discussion.

You seem vastly experienced in this matter; what is your view on this example? I remember this, where a councilor was found to be in breach of Pendle Councils code of conduct for posts on a personal Facebook account. Doesn’t this demonstrate the code goes beyond just activities in the role as a councilor?

“I also consider that a councillor who allows such an inappropriate post to stand on their Facebook page or passes it on to other users is acting in breach of the Council’s Code of Conduct. In my view it is a failure to treat people with respect and falls short of the high standards of leadership and example expected of all councillors. This is even more the case when the councillor holds or has held high office.”

https://www.pendle.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/20907/item_4_-_investigation_report

The Pendle Code, whilst different, is similar in wording to Brighton’s in wording as well as structure.

Do we know if the Cllr posted these racist jokes whilst serving as a Cllr @Herr Tubthumper

 

[Goldstone1976]

I love the way Ivan comes in, all guns blazing, with complete lack of awareness, shoots himself in both feet, shoots the OP in both feet who is, ironically, trying to find issues with the same opposition. With complete incompetence and idiocy on that level, I suspect he believes he will make the cabinet

Well, he’s on his way; he “has the ear of government” apparently.

 

[Happy Exile]

I love the way Ivan comes in, all guns blazing, with complete lack of awareness, shoots himself in both feet, shoots the OP in both feet who is, ironically, trying to find issues with the same opposition. With complete incompetence and idiocy on that level, I suspect he believes he will make the cabinet

It says something about a person when they have a profile and public position of responsibility, are known, have apparently had issues over what they've posted in the past, and they are still less cautious or thoughtful about what they post than the majority of us on the board who are mostly anonymous to each other and probably mostly don't have public positions of responsibility either.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Do we know if the Cllr posted these racist jokes whilst serving as a Cllr @Herr Tubthumper

He did not. He was a prospective councillor due to stand for election. Not that it matters - I'd rather not have a racist councillor from any party.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I love the way Ivan comes in, all guns blazing, with complete lack of awareness, shoots himself in both feet, shoots the OP in both feet who is, ironically, trying to find issues with the same opposition. With complete incompetence and idiocy on that level, I suspect he believes he will make the cabinet

And he returned to NSC to do this after a major flounce…I wonder if he’s pleaded with @Bozza to get his precious prediction thread back?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

This is an interesting discussion.

You seem vastly experienced in this matter; what is your view on this example? I remember this, where a councilor was found to be in breach of Pendle Councils code of conduct for posts on a personal Facebook account. Doesn’t this demonstrate the code goes beyond just activities in the role as a councilor?

“I also consider that a councillor who allows such an inappropriate post to stand on their Facebook page or passes it on to other users is acting in breach of the Council’s Code of Conduct. In my view it is a failure to treat people with respect and falls short of the high standards of leadership and example expected of all councillors. This is even more the case when the councillor holds or has held high office.”

https://www.pendle.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/20907/item_4_-_investigation_report

The Pendle Code, whilst different, is similar in wording to Brighton’s in wording as well as structure.

The introduction the the B&H code states:
"The Code does not apply when Members are acting or appearing in the perception of a reasonable person to be acting in a purely private capacity."
With the best will in the world, I'm not sure how it can reasonably be taken to apply to Facebook posts written (and publicised) several years before he was selected as a candidate for the most recent election.

Whether there's anything in there that covers coming onto NSC, opening with

Still your Conservative Councillor supporting BHA fan is still here! I was asked to give a speech at council tomorrow as the club have been granted freedom of the city. But I will be on a plane to Greece. Always happy to talk politics on the plane or preferably BHA.

and then acting like a twat is a different question.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Was her Facebook account in the name of Councillor Rosemary Caroll or just ’Rosemary Carol’?

Yes, it was her own Facebook account. See post below from the local Tory pary. This incident shows that the 'code of conduct' does cover private life as well as when acting in the role as a councillor.