[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[BBassic]

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

If he's got any sense at all he'll go, and go hard, for the younger voters.

The 18-30 year olds who have more or less only known Tory rule. The (youngest) ones who had no say in the Brexit vote but find their country crumbling because of it. The ones who have seen years and years of corruption and sleaze. The ones who can't afford a house. The ones who won't have much of a climate to enjoy if things carry on.

If they can come up with some policies (that aren't a complete fantasy) to inspire that cohort to go to the polls it could be seismic.

 

[Rdodge30]

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

 

[Gwylan]

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

The presence of the left in the party is really overstated. People spoke about Momentum but, at its peak, this was about 10% of all Labour members, it's a lot fewer than that now. I'd be surprised if it were 5%. There are lot of Corbynites moaning but not many of them are actually party members.

I do think Starmer has to be a bit bold in his approach. I'm not sure saying that we'll be the same as the Tories, just less corrupt, is going to make a big difference.

 

[Machiavelli]

Well, I disagree fundamentally that Starmer doesn't have any policies. Miliband's energy plan is up there with Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. There are plans afoot at education, too.
I also disagree fundamentally that Starmer needs to have (m)any more policies for the next election. All he needs to do is to not rock the boat. Labour have had 20-25% leads in the polls for approaching a year now, and this year is hardly going to be a rosy one to restore confidence in the incumbents. That's without factoring in the slime left behind by Johnson, which will splurge out at times. Ditto the fracturing of Sunak's current fragile consensus which will follow on from the disastrous local elections in a few months time.
Of course that lead will reduce once the election approaches, but those thinking that the Tories will be in power after the election are living in la-la-land.

 

[Rdodge30]

Well, I disagree fundamentally that Starmer doesn't have any policies. Miliband's energy plan is up there with Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. There are plans afoot at education, too.
I also disagree fundamentally that Starmer needs to have (m)any more policies for the next election. All he needs to do is to not rock the boat. Labour have had 20-25% leads in the polls for approaching a year now, and this year is hardly going to be a rosy one to restore confidence in the incumbents. That's without factoring in the slime left behind by Johnson, which will splurge out at times. Ditto the fracturing of Sunak's current fragile consensus which will follow on from the disastrous local elections in a few months time.
Of course that lead will reduce once the election approaches, but those thinking that the Tories will be in power after the election are living in la-la-land.

He will have to have a manifesto

If that manifesto is electable, he will have to fight his own party and the unions in order to win as the political beliefs of the left of the party have always been unpalatable to the electorate. Not a shoo in by any means

 

[Javeaseagull]

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

Have you ever stopped to consider why Corbyn was unelectable? He was subjected to massive propaganda by unelected, non-tax paying Press Barons. He was slandered as a racist, anti-semitic allotment owner who rides a bicycle. The abuse was overwhelming and would have crushed anybody. Treatment reminiscent of the way Tony Benn was vilified, another one who terrified the Establishment.

Tony Blair turned out to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher so what was the point?

 

[Audax]

Have you ever stopped to consider why Corbyn was unelectable? He was subjected to massive propaganda by unelected, non-tax paying Press Barons. He was slandered as a racist, anti-semitic allotment owner who rides a bicycle. The abuse was overwhelming and would have crushed anybody. Treatment reminiscent of the way Tony Benn was vilified, another one who terrified the Establishment.

Tony Blair turned out to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher so what was the point?

IMO, it had more to do with his many years in Parliament providing said Press Barons with a whole lot of ammo to shoot him down with. I think they'll find it a lot harder to do the same to Starmer. Hence why we still see Sunak and co using the "but whatabout Corbyn...!" defense lines in PMQs so frequently.

 

[WATFORD zero]

IMO, it had more to do with his many years in Parliament providing said Press Barons with a whole lot of ammo to shoot him down with. I think they'll find it a lot harder to do the same to Starmer. Hence why we still see Sunak and co using the "but whatabout Corbyn...!" defense lines in PMQs so frequently.

But shirley no one is really desperate enough to still be using the 'whatabout Corbyn' line after the Brexit cabal's last 3 years of idiocy, complete and utter incompetence, lies and constant corruption throughout ?

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

........... Oh

 

[Rdodge30]

But shirley no one is really desperate enough to still be using the 'whatabout Corbyn' line after the Brexit cabal's last 3 years of idiocy, complete and utter incompetence, lies and constant corruption throughout ?



........... Oh

Desperate enough to be still banging on about brexit more like!!

Corbyn was unelectable, as was clear to the Labour membership when he was voted leader. His agenda was to reform the Labour Party and so he did.

Favourability 18% wasn’t it… voted against his own party over 600 times , shadow cabinet reshuffled 10/11 times , over 100 shadow ministers under his reign and inevitably a Conservative landslide against him. Absolute joke of an election from the Labour Party, so yes complicit and entirely predictable

Sir Keir Starmer a different kettle of fish altogether and is entirely electable.

Conservative Party in a shocking state and entirely unelectable

The only thing stopping the country from having a Labour Government will be the left of the Labour Party and the Unions. Starmer will have to be as strong as Blair to win and will no doubt be under more attack from his own party than from the opposition when he announces his manifesto

 

[Machiavelli]

He will have to have a manifesto

If that manifesto is electable, he will have to fight his own party and the unions in order to win as the political beliefs of the left of the party have always been unpalatable to the electorate. Not a shoo in by any means

Of course he'll have a manifesto.
I'll bet you a large sum of money that the Labour Party form the next government.

 

[Machiavelli]

Hmmm. Has someone on this thread also got, or had, other usernames?

 

[WATFORD zero]

The only thing stopping the country from having a Labour Government will be the left of the Labour Party and the Unions. Starmer will have to be as strong as Blair to win and will no doubt be under more attack from his own party than from the opposition when he announces his manifesto

You can always live in hope

 

[Rdodge30]

Of course he'll have a manifesto.
I'll bet you a large sum of money that the Labour Party form the next government.

As they are 1 to 5 on in the betting I’m sure you would , I’m not inclined to take evens against

They really should form the next Government but if he bends too far to the left to appease his own party then he will blow it - he should stick to his guns and to hell with MCluskey and the like. To be honest I think he will hold his nerve, he certainly doesn’t look like re admitting Corbyn anytime soon

 

[Rdodge30]

Watford Zero - absolutely not what I’m hoping for, simply what I expect

 

[nicko31]

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

Starmer pretty keen to face down the hard left.

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

To be honest they are as rare in Labour now as sensible Tories in Sunak's cabal.

The difference is Starmer has faced down the far left nutters, whereas he Tories have embraced the right wing nutters. In normal times you win elections from the centre, not by embracing marxism or fascism.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Have you ever stopped to consider why Corbyn was unelectable? He was subjected to massive propaganda by unelected, non-tax paying Press Barons. He was slandered as a racist, anti-semitic allotment owner who rides a bicycle. The abuse was overwhelming and would have crushed anybody. Treatment reminiscent of the way Tony Benn was vilified, another one who terrified the Establishment.

Tony Blair turned out to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher so what was the point?

Ironic. Central to the anti-Corbyn campaign was his alleged links to the IRA. The right wing media made a huge song and dance about this. Gammon everywhere were labelling him as a traitor.

And whilst all this was going on, the real traitors were the ‘Conservative friends of Russia’ group with their lavish dinner party fund raisers and trips to Moscow (with one of the leave campaign chiefs), all seeing them take over £5m in oligarch donations for their party in order to push Putin policies such as Brexit. Brexit was a stunning victory for Putin’s foreign policy. No wonder so many backed his judgment when he decided to invade the Ukraine.

That said, for all his qualities, Corbyn was not leadership material, he was a back bench campaigner (devoid of a sense of humour, personality and the sort of judgement a leader should have) and should have stayed there.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Ironic. Central to the anti-Corbyn campaign was his alleged links to the IRA. The right wing media made a huge song and dance about this. Gammon everywhere were labelling him as a traitor.

And whilst all this was going on, the real traitors were the ‘Conservative friends of Russia’ group with their lavish dinner party fund raisers and trips to Moscow (with one of the leave campaign chiefs), all seeing them take over £5m in oligarch donations for their party in order to push Putin policies such as Brexit. Brexit was a stunning victory for Putin’s foreign policy. No wonder so many backed his judgment when he decided to invade the Ukraine.

That said, for all his qualities, Corbyn was not leadership material, he was a back bench campaigner (devoid of a sense of humour, personality and the sort of judgement a leader should have) and should have stayed there.

No he wasn’t a firebrand leader of the old school. He wanted to lead by consensus not by rhetoric and charisma. Blair and Johnson both had that and look where that took us.

We are all entitled to our opinions but the one thing he did for me was actually give me hope for a better country for my kids and their kids. It’s the hope that kills you, as they say.

 

[chickens]

Ironic. Central to the anti-Corbyn campaign was his alleged links to the IRA. The right wing media made a huge song and dance about this. Gammon everywhere were labelling him as a traitor.

And whilst all this was going on, the real traitors were the ‘Conservative friends of Russia’ group with their lavish dinner party fund raisers and trips to Moscow (with one of the leave campaign chiefs), all seeing them take over £5m in oligarch donations for their party in order to push Putin policies such as Brexit. Brexit was a stunning victory for Putin’s foreign policy. No wonder so many backed his judgment when he decided to invade the Ukraine.

That said, for all his qualities, Corbyn was not leadership material, he was a back bench campaigner (devoid of a sense of humour, personality and the sort of judgement a leader should have) and should have stayed there.

Agree with most of what you have said here, however I have to add that there has been a lot of worryingly soft rhetoric from Corbyn on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, where he has openly stated he would not arm Ukraine and would instead engage with Putin to broker a peace deal.

Given that Putin has openly ridden roughshod over every previously negotiated peace deal, I don’t see how that’s a credible position. I don’t see that as his being in Putin’s pocket, but I do see it as political naivety.

The Conservative Party however, does appear to have been heavily funded by Russia, and there should be some light shone on exactly what has gone on there.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Agree with most of what you have said here, however I have to add that there has been a lot of worryingly soft rhetoric from Corbyn on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, where he has openly stated he would not arm Ukraine and would instead engage with Putin to broker a peace deal.

Given that Putin has openly ridden roughshod over every previously negotiated peace deal, I don’t see how that’s a credible position. I don’t see that as his being in Putin’s pocket, but I do see it as political naivety.

The Conservative Party however, does appear to have been heavily funded by Russia, and there should be some light shone on exactly what has gone on there.

Corbin was replaced as leader in 2020 and suspended from the PLP in October of that year. Not sure why you would quote his views on the Ukraine invasion of 2022 but as an avowed pacifist how do you think he should have responded?

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Starmer pretty keen to face down the hard left.

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

To be honest there are as rare in Labour now as sensible Tories in Sunak's cabal.

The difference is Starmer has faced down the far left nutters, the Tories have embraced the right wing nutters. In normal times you win elections from the centre, not by embracing marxism or fascism.

" There is an inch of difference between the Tory party and the Labour Party but it is within that inch that we all live "
( Richard Neville...Oz co-founder )