[Politics] Should NATO send in troops and planes

[birthofanorange]

It’s a seriously dangerous situation and no mistake. Is it fair to let millions of Ukrainians lose their freedom and/or lives because of this madman? The answer is probably “yes”, though no one will admit it. If Ukraine can drag Russia into a decade long conflict that wastes their country but ultimately sees Putin defeated then again, yes it will be worth it. If Russia occupies Ukraine and then attacks another country, NATO member or not, then you could say Nuclear war was inevitable and the only person / people responsible is Putin and Russians. They will become the new Nazis, a century will pass before they are allowed back into civilised world after millions, probably including us, have been killed. That’s the price of madmen being allowed to walk this earth in the nuclear age. There but for the grace of god (or Putin) go I and all that.

People keep saying 'millions' - why? It will be billions, if it goes full scale.....billions. Literally.

 

[portlock seagull]

If NATO went into Ukraine Russia would be humiliated militarily, China would likely get involved, Putin will press the button.
Mutually assured destruction.

Putin will conquer Ukraine, he won’t rest for a minute, there will be a guerrilla war that will rage for years to come, the west will continue to fund Ukrainian rebels, just like they did the Mujahideen in the 80s, body bags full of Russian conscripts will be wept over by mother’s.
We need to hope that one of his own bumps him off.

Internal revolution is the dream ticket I agree. Never happened during Hitler’s day though. Not sure it can or will during Putins. I’m not convinced China will get involved in a military sense. What would they gain? Why have they also condemned Russia etc? If NATO entered Ukraine then I can see a nuclear war starting because Putin is unhinged. Equally can see Putin attacking other countries. For the same reason. In which case we have to live with the real fear that millions of us will die. But so will they, and we cannot allow a madman to dictate who is free and who isn’t because of his sociopathic, warped views and misplaced grudges plus hatred from a bygone era.

 

[portlock seagull]

People keep saying 'millions' - why? It will be billions, if it goes full scale.....billions. Literally.

Because that’s more likely in a war between Nato and Russia?

 

[Baker lite]

Internal revolution is the dream ticket I agree. Never happened during Hitler’s day though. Not sure it can or will during Putins. I’m not convinced China will get involved in a military sense. What would they gain? Why have they also condemned Russia etc? If NATO entered Ukraine then I can see a nuclear war starting because Putin is unhinged. Equally can see Putin attacking other countries. For the same reason. In which case we have to live with the real fear that millions of us will die. But so will they, and we cannot allow a madman to dictate who is free and who isn’t because of his sociopathic, warped views and misplaced grudges plus hatred from a bygone era.

As I said earlier, someone needs to bump him off.
As a child of the 70s I have never been so concerned about a full out nuclear war, we are on the edge, this man is mad.

 

[British Bulldog]

I think that is over simplifying things to say its "because I don't want to die". I don't want humanity as a species to die, and a nuclear war will end with the destruction of life on this planet. Sending troops into the Ukraine won't save lives, if everyone is then obliterated in the ensuing nuclear war. And sending NATO troops into the Ukraine will lead to a nuclear war. Therefore we must do everything we can to find an alterantive.

We all want the world to survive but all the time a mad man is allowed to go around bombing nuclear power stations it's likely to kill us before a nuclear war, do you really want that to happen before we fight back?

 

[Machiavelli]

What is the general feeling on NSC

Should NATO get involved with troops on the ground and planes in the air in Ukraine?

What think you? No fence option, that’s where we are at the moment…

What of the 'Sadly, no way' option?

 

[portlock seagull]

As I said earlier, someone needs to bump him off.
As a child of the 70s I have never been so concerned about a full out nuclear war, we are on the edge, this man is mad.

Me too. I remember feeling physically sick and anxious in the Protect and Survive age, including school drills and bomb shelters built where I lived. Plus my Dad worked for MOD and even came home with briefcases handcuffed to his person with Orange dyes that would make the paper contents useless if opened by force, all of which gave us perhaps a little bit more of an awareness than some households. That and we also had “NATO Commander” on the Commodore 64…

 

[birthofanorange]

Because that’s more likely in a war between Nato and Russia?

No, it isn't - there's about 10 million people in London alone. Multiply that by all the cities around the world that would be decimated, and it won't be in the millions.

 

[portlock seagull]

No, it isn't - there's about 10 million people in London alone. Multiply that by all the cities around the world that would be decimated, and it won't be in the millions.

I was more coming from the angle that Europe and Russia combined isn’t a billion. The billions of this world lie outside of Europe in the main. Regardless, it would be on a previously unimaginable scale if strategic nuclear warheads were used for sure. Something I wouldn’t want to survive. As [MENTION=15046]peterward[/MENTION] said, the living would envy the dead.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Thought so.

Should the person signing up to take the Queens coin think to themselves ‘Learn a trade, great camaraderie and see the world’, but then also stop and remember that serving military personal should always be the first to face the dangers of military combat?

 

[portlock seagull]

I keep reading how Putin is a “madman” and I think that is an image that has been keenly cultivated in the west. I’ve seen evidence of callousness, indifference to human suffering, and the kind of overt machismo that has always suggested to me that the person exhibiting it is trying too hard, but I have not seen evidence of insanity.

The public message is clearly “we are strong and fearless” but I don’t believe for a second that Putin would start a nuclear war. He has a strong sense of self-preservation, and is clearly testing to see how much we’ll swallow before we get involved.

My great fear is that every day we delay, more innocents die, the more hardened his remaining (non-deserting) troops become, and the more opportunity he has to fix his equipment and supply lines.

I fear tens of thousands more civilian deaths, Putin resupplies and repairs his gear, then we still have to go in, in the end.

Insanity by many persons definitions including mine = threatening use of nuclear weapons. So yes, Putin is insane. We don’t need him to prove it. Just threaten it is unsurpassed.

 

[birthofanorange]

I was more coming from the angle that Europe and Russia combined isn’t a billion. The billions of this world lie outside of Europe in the main. Regardless, it would be on a previously unimaginable scale if strategic nuclear warheads were used for sure. Something I wouldn’t want to survive. As [MENTION=15046]peterward[/MENTION] said, the living would envy the dead.

I think it would spread around the world, but that is worst case scenario. However, I'm in full agreement with most of your above reply, especially 'the living would envy the dead'.
It's barely comprehensible.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I can only see Ukraine being split like Germany was after WW2 being the only solution?

No it will be like France with a puppet Govenment ,no wonder Macron keeps talking to Putin

Regards
DF

 

[Baker lite]

Should the person signing up to take the Queens coin think to themselves ‘Learn a trade, great camaraderie and see the world’, but then also stop and remember that serving military personal should always be the first to face the dangers of military combat?

I signed up for Queen and country, so yes. If I was still in and called upon, of course I would go.In recent days there are a lot of people, that this time last week week were pandemic and cake experts. This week they seem to want other people’s children to travel to far edge of Europe to fight an un winnable war.

 

[Swansman]

I'm not going to try to convince you or get you to agree with me. But play with my way of thinking.

First: As a conspiracy theorist, I believe all big politics are carefully planned among the big politicans and the big financial powers. In the daylight they are enemies with differences (real or alleged), at night time they are comrades, drawing up plans for the progression towards the kind of society they want... which is a global one government oligopoly under total control. Very, very similar to what Aldous Huxley thought would happen within a 100 years back in 1958.

In my way of thinking, this could be a big step (the permanent destruction of Russia):

The permanent destruction of Russia would need to mean a long and hard war. Vladimir Putin could easily destroy his own country, no problems, but if its going to be done in a way that makes Russians forget everything but peace, and then willingly accept itself as a cozy friend of the state rather than a country where "we do things our way", then we will have war for years... millions dead, NATO bombing the shite out of Russia, probably the odd retaliation to make it all seem real to us, the audience.

There is no place for free-minded people in our future society and the Russians are among the last men standing when it comes to buying into the ideas. When I use my conspirational mind (which is not all the time as I try to see it in several ways) I truly believe that Putin is not a man attempting to expand Russia, but to destroy it. Which I know would make a lot of people happy as we've had some 70 years of Hollywood propaganda where Russians are always evil... just be aware that this "final solution regarding Russia" would cost a lot of lives, and that soon as there's no "big enemy of the world", there is also no reason for our leaders to treat us well, as there's no one left to fight against potential power abuse.

Second: But maybe there are actually two empires? Maybe, despite having every kind of Star Wars-crazy tech, agents and intelligence everywhere, it is truly impossible to kill Vladimir Putin... so maybe a deal was done with him. But after twenty years of quite successful management of his Russia, would he take a very obvious risk to lose everything by invading a debt-riddled piece of shite country on their borders? I dont think so. Not without a deal with the oligarchs of the west: we doa "bad empire, good empire" show, split Ukraine and take all their shit.

Both the Western Empire and Russia would love to get everything there is in Ukraine. Marvelous natural resources. None would want Ukraine as it is today. The country is a deficit monster, the infrastructure and technology is too poor to harvest those resources. Who are going to pay the billions needed to modernise the country enough to use its full potential? Not us, not Russia, not the Ukrainian oligarchy. It can not be done peacefull without enraging Ukrainians and their oligarchs, because we know what taking big IMF loans results in... all state and "state" ownership of natural resources must be sold to foreign investors to pay back the borrowed money, and the already poor Ukrainians are likely to face austerity.

A war solves most of those problems. With the destruction of Ukraine, there is no longer room for debate among 40+ million Ukrainians... the question "should we take a big fat loan, live in even more poverty, to modernise our country enough for foreign powers to exploit our resources?" which is difficult to justify would change to "are we going to take a big fat loan to have a country to live in?". Of course it would be done in a similar way with all natural resources going private. If there is indeed a secret deal; perhaps Gazprom gets the Ukrainian oil, gas and coal, while our western oligarchy gets all those lovely minerals... and the best thing? Its for free! The next five-ten generations of Ukrainians are going to pay for it, and in their desperation become very cheap work force.

This would be horrible for Ukrainians (however the common man spent like a thousand years not giving a shit about Ukrainians and would quickly resume not giving a shit once it is decided that media should focus elsewhere) but great for the people running Russia and the Western Empire.

... so in summary, do I know everything about Russia and Ukraine? No. But I know the West well enough to know that we would never do "good" without first thinking: whats in it for us?. Depending on the answer, we may or may not see NATO soldiers going in, believing they are fighting for peace (when in reality, they're fighting for the wealth and power of our own oligarchy). Obviously I'm opposed... but neither you or I have a say in where the journey is taking us.

 

[Live by the sea]

Sadly I agree. We shouldn't be allowing civilians to be slaughtered.

I get the risks but we can't let a modern day Hitler have his way.

I also think NATO are being too nervous. Given Russian forces are mainly young conscripts and haven't been able the break either the Ukrainian forces or even the civilians it would suggest a few battalions of US, UK and French combat troops - Marines, Paras and Special Forces, wouldn't have an issue. All battle hardened from Afgan, Iraq and, for the French, Africa.

I find incomprehensable that we can allow the slaughter to continue.

I totally agree with the sentiment but there’s no way that NATO will risk any all out war with Russia - far too dangerous for the peace and stability of Europe . If it was a much smaller much less military strong country then there may be an argument for military action but it won’t happen against Russia .

That unfortunately would be madness .

 

[Simster]

Put simply, I'd say NATO cannot afford to go into Ukraine because of the threat of nuclear war.

That said, and I know this is a dangerous situation, but they do need to ramp up the military in the NATO border states - Romania, Poland, the Baltics. The message needs to be clear - we will throttle your economy while you continue this war in Ukraine (and our government continues to be unhelpful by not seizing assets), but also that we say what we've always said and mean - if Russia sets foot in a NATO country, it's war.

I am afraid it has come to this.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

For some reason when I merged the two threads to keep the poll it reverted the thread title. I think it's all tidied up now. Long morning......

Anyway, to answer the question, no. It's no more our business than Putin's incursions into Georgia, annexing Crimea or war crimes in Syria. It's just nearer to the doorstep.

NATO is there to defend NATO countries and if Putin attacks one of those then sadly we are looking at Nuclear War.

Putin's 'incursions' into - the Crimea, Syria WERE our business ! NATO has it's commander in chief a doddering 80 year old who showed his utter treachery and incompetence in the Afghanistan fiasco. This was the green light to Putin to try his luck - which he has done with the most incredible cynical cruelty and disregard for the lives of Ukrainian civilians. Ukraine is a democratic country that wants to be part of the West. Why does wants to be a part of the West when the West shows itself to be so supine and spineless ?
I'm old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis. Kennedy had the balls to face the Russians down [remember that Castro was furious when the Russians backed down - he would actually have preferred nuclear war !] Do you really think Putin gives a damn about NATO or whether countries are members or not. He thinks we're a bunch of gutless degenerates who deserve nothing but contempt. Let him have his way and one of the Baltic states will be next.
Do we care about freedom, the rule of law, freedom of expression, the rights of the individual - or are we as he sees us - a bunch of pussies who endlessly roll over and just give up all that our forebears fought for over centuries ?
This man has to be stopped and taken out right now - acting [or not acting] out of fear is just not an alternative that anyone believing in freedom should accept.

 

[peterward]

Put simply, I'd say NATO cannot afford to go into Ukraine because of the threat of nuclear war.

That said, and I know this is a dangerous situation, but they do need to ramp up the military in the NATO border states - Romania, Poland, the Baltics. The message needs to be clear - we will throttle your economy while you continue this war in Ukraine (and our government continues to be unhelpful by not seizing assets), but also that we say what we've always said and mean - if Russia sets foot in a NATO country, it's war.

I am afraid it has come to this.

The next steps should be more crushing sanctions, I dont know how we do it, but even saying we're working sanctioning all oil and gas exports, will send ruble diving further still.

I read coca cola and pirelli are planning on staying, guess there will be other, the cancel culture brigade need to do some sort of petition to stop using products, whilst they profit from a state murdering people. Try and guilt trip every western company to leave including the luxury good providers.

 

[beorhthelm]

...
Both the Western Empire and Russia would love to get everything there is in Ukraine. Marvelous natural resources. None would want Ukraine as it is today. The country is a deficit monster, the infrastructure and technology is too poor to harvest those resources. Who are going to pay the billions needed to modernise the country enough to use its full potential? Not us, not Russia, not the Ukrainian oligarchy. It can not be done peacefull without enraging Ukrainians and their oligarchs, because we know what taking big IMF loans results in... all state and "state" ownership of natural resources must be sold to foreign investors to pay back the borrowed money, and the already poor Ukrainians are likely to face austerity.

wtf... what a nonsensical and insulting view. they are in Europe, with modern infrastructure and access to all the technology you have. they are already a provider of minerals and ore, and their debt is less than major western countries. companies would invest to build if the returns are there as they do elsewhere across europe. all war does it destroy alot of the infrastucture and make investment look more risky.