[Politics] Should NATO send in troops and planes

[birthofanorange]

No, otherwise I fear that millions will be killed across Europe and beyond.

I'd make that billions, tbh.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Someone needs to take out Putin. Either one of their’s or one of ours.

 

[A1X]

No, absolutely no way.

What is happening in Ukraine is horrific, and I am all in favour of helping the Ukrainians covertly to give Putin a bloody nose while imposing any number of sanctions on him and his supporters. But none of what is happening in Ukraine is worth bringing about the end of the world for.

 

[Badger Boy]

A week ago, I'd have voted no. But I'm not so sure now, I think we should go in there and knock it off. The Russians are being totally unreasonable at this point and the only outcome if we don't get involved is the total destruction of a friendly nation who have been randomly and severely attacked by an autocratic leader with no morals telling whoppers to his people. It's very, very clear that he's divorced from reality and a real threat to democracies in the world.

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is absolutely dire for Ukraine and its people, but the one sided war is currently Putin and his loyal generals versus Ukraine. You have to hope that the economic sanctions will keep things that way until there is a Russian solution to get rid of the dictator.

Any NATO involvement in Ukraine, makes this a threat to Russia and suddenly Putin is the heroic defender of Russia. Assuming NATO can win a land war in Ukraine, which is not a given, there is then a need to build a defensive wall manned by an army measured in 100Ks to maintain the border. Or total annihilation of Russian forces and the guaranteed mutual destruction this would bring.

You can't fix this one down the pub over a few beers.

 

[beorhthelm]

lets step back. Putin justifies invading Ukraine as about security and the onward march of NATO. going into Ukraine with NATO planes lets him turn round to his people as say he was right.

basically he wins.

 

[British Bulldog]

This is absolutely dire for Ukraine and its people, but the one sided war is currently Putin and his loyal generals versus Ukraine. You have to hope that the economic sanctions will keep things that way until there is a Russian solution to get rid of the dictator.

Any NATO involvement in Ukraine, makes this a threat to Russia and suddenly Putin is the heroic defender of Russia. Assuming NATO can win a land war in Ukraine, which is not a given, there is then a need to build a defensive wall manned by an army measured in 100Ks to maintain the border. Or total annihilation of Russian forces and the guaranteed mutual destruction this would bring.

You can't fix this one down the pub over a few beers.

Can you really see Russia competing with Nato on the ground or in the air? I can't and I don't think Putin does either that's why he went straight in with the nuclear threats.

 

[Coldeanseagull]

I've voted yes, we have to do something, but the russian dickhead has a fair backing from china by the looks of it. Are they willing to totally throw their cap into the ring?

 

[el punal]

This really poses a terrible dilemma. Do nothing and that monster Putin thinks he’s won hands down and will probably try the same thing again wherever he chooses - Moldova, Poland, the Baltic states? On the other hand if NATO gets involved the situation will escalate into something a lot more sinister and horrendous. I would never put it past that evil b*****d that he would use nuclear weapons just to prove how much of a megalomaniac he is.

I just hope that someone in the Russian government has enough balls to depose or dispose off the complete shit.

 

[Lethargic]

There are many ways to get involved and I suspect we are already doing some, but troops and planes is not the answer at this point.

 

[happypig]

Reluctant no from me.
There are going to be thousands killed and millions displaced if we don't go in, every single one down to Putin.
If we do go in there will be deaths an order of magnitude higher.

 

[maltaseagull]

Sadly I agree. We shouldn't be allowing civilians to be slaughtered.

I get the risks but we can't let a modern day Hitler have his way.

I also think NATO are being too nervous. Given Russian forces are mainly young conscripts and haven't been able the break either the Ukrainian forces or even the civilians it would suggest a few battalions of US, UK and French combat troops - Marines, Paras and Special Forces, wouldn't have an issue. All battle hardened from Afgan, Iraq and, for the French, Africa.

I find incomprehensable that we can allow the slaughter to continue.

I agree that we cannot allow the slaughter to continue but Putin is such a nutjob he would respond to NATO armies beating his with nuclear strikes against the west.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Can you really see Russia competing with Nato on the ground or in the air? I can't and I don't think Putin does either that's why he went straight in with the nuclear threats.

Home advantage is massive. Ask Napoleon or Hitler (you might struggle to get an answer). The nuclear threat was as much for an internal audience as to warn off NATO.

 

[portlock seagull]

Thought so.

And your family? Just for balance?

 

[Baker lite]

Totally agree.

Re bolded - If they don't, they want to watch Threads or watch/read When The Wind Blows. They will focus the mind.

Putin knows that a conventional war with NATO would see him humiliated, his military hardware is dated, Cold War crap mostly. This is what makes him so dangerous, he would not hesitate to press the button. He needs bumping off, sharpish.

 

[MJsGhost]

No No No. Life is cheap for the Russians and Putin will just throw unimaginable numbers of canon fodder at Ukraine and anyone else who gets in the way, just like Stalin did at Hitler, and irrespective of the mortality rate until he gets really pissed off and then he'll just start nuking, localised to start with and then taking out whole countries. And anyone who doesn't understand this really needs to get their head fixed.

He will just throw numbers at us as per Stalin.
A pure waste of lives on both sides if it did happen.

Although I agree that he'd likely try this, the comfort for me is that we are living in a very different age.

It's far, far harder to suppress news/communication in the modern age, so the soldiers themselves and the Russian people will know more about it and won't put up with them being sent to slaughter in huge numbers. (I'm not suggesting it will be a quick or simple process, just more likely than in Stalin's time)

It makes a difference that they are attacking Ukraine too - there are so many families with cross-border ties that unless they cut off literally all forms of communication (and how could they indefinitely?), word of the reality of the situation will spread.

Direct intervention from EU / UN / NATO forces will only give strength to Putin's 'justification' that he is doing this out of necessity due to the build-up of aggressive forces on his doorstep - whether that's consolidating support within the Kremlin, or persuading China to support him rather than sit on the fence (or even to carry on collecting splinters rather than express support for Ukraine).

 

[Baker lite]

And your family? Just for balance?

I’m no longer in the Navy, my Brother is no longer in the RAF and my Dad (ex crab air)passed away 6 years ago.
I feel I can safely say none of us would advocate sending other people’s children into a war we cannot win.

 

[portlock seagull]

No, absolutely no way.

What is happening in Ukraine is horrific, and I am all in favour of helping the Ukrainians covertly to give Putin a bloody nose while imposing any number of sanctions on him and his supporters. But none of what is happening in Ukraine is worth bringing about the end of the world for.

It’s Hobson’s choice really at the moment isn’t it? I’m now for defending the western part of Ukraine with NATO air strikes. Establish a rump state from which to fight Russia for as long as it takes. Make it their new Afghanistan until such a time as Putin dies or is overthrown. It’s unprecedented times. No one factored into the mutual destruction equation “what if one side was completely irrational, illogical or even insane? What’s the protocol then?” That moment in history is now. Right now.

 

[Braggfan]

Sadly it's a no from me. I think the consequences of not sending troops and planes are awful, but the consequences of yes could be even worse. Sending troops and planes is the WW3 scenario, which will end in nuclear war. That is essentially the end of life of this planet. So as awful as it is not sending troops in, it's better than the end of everything.

 

[cjd]

I do get a little irritated at the same old " Putin is a madman " etc etc etc.

Putin knows exactly what he is doing and so do his closest associates.

All the time that we in the West doing nothing he will continue. Sanctions will never work against people like Putin , who has total control over media and the armed forces etc . Have a good look at Kim Jong un. Sanctions haven't harmed him personally or his popularity .

The one and only thing that will stop Putin is boots on the ground in Ukraine....not Russia....just Ukraine. The loss of life would be smaller, once Putin backs off than it could be with doing nothing .