[Politics] Should NATO send in troops and planes

[British Bulldog]

Sadly it's a no from me. I think the consequences of not sending troops and planes are awful, but the consequences of yes could be even worse. Sending troops and planes is the WW3 scenario, which will end in nuclear war. That is essentially the end of life of this planet. So as awful as it is not sending troops in, it's better than the end of everything.

So your prepared to sit back and sacrifice a country and god knows how many people because you don't want to die? What happens when Putin moves on to the next country and does the same?

 

[birthofanorange]

The one and only thing that will stop Putin is boots on the ground in Ukraine....not Russia....just Ukraine. The loss of life would be smaller, once Putin backs off than it could be with doing nothing .

So you are of the firm, 100% belief that he absolutely would not 'press the button'?

 

[birthofanorange]

So your prepared to sit back and sacrifice a country and god knows how many people because you don't want to die? What happens when Putin moves on to the next country and does the same?

I don't think it's about not wanting to die on a personal level, it's about not wanting (potentially) the ENTIRE human race to die....and die horribly.
As in 'The End'.

 

[British Bulldog]

I don't think it's about not wanting to die on a personal level, it's about not wanting (potentially) the ENTIRE human race to die....and die horribly.
As in 'The End'.

Do you really think it will come down to that? I don't.

 

[birthofanorange]

Do you really think it will come down to that? I don't.

Well, I do.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Is it really down to one man pressing a red button to launch thousands of nuclear weapons or does it has to go through a chain of command?

It goes through a chain of command. As I posted the other day when Kruschev and Kennedy were at loggerheads over Cuba, it was a Russian officer who used common sense that prevented nuclear weapons being fired.
No nuclear warhead can be fired by one person alone.

My answer is not yet, but if Putin goes further, then NATO has to stop him.

 

[cjd]

So you are of the firm, 100% belief that he absolutely would not 'press the button'?

nobody can be 100 % certain of anything. What a silly question to ask. It's typical of some of the nonsense posted on this thread.

If you want to know if I THINK on the balance of probability would Putin would turn to using nuclear warheads, the answer is ...no. Madmen don't pontficate for years wondering how the West will react to his attempt to draw Ukraine back into his circle.

He has now seen how the West will react.....and I suggest that he is probably, more than pleasantly surprised and relieved. Not everyone in the Kremlin wants to commit suicide despite the impressions this forum and some of the media are trying to tell you.

I desperately want the scumbag Putin to fail. Appeasement ( IMHO ) is not the way.

 

[British Bulldog]

Well, I do.

Nothing more than Putin waving his hammer and sickle at the west, the sooner we stand up to him the sooner he backs down.

 

[portlock seagull]

I’m no longer in the Navy, my Brother is no longer in the RAF and my Dad (ex crab air)passed away 6 years ago.
I feel I can safely say none of us would advocate sending other people’s children into a war we cannot win.

Which is fair enough and I respect that view, I honestly do. But why would Ukraine not be winnable either? The world has turned on Russia. Everyone would like an independent free Ukraine again and I’d back a Nato supported Ukraine all day long over Putins thugs.

 

[birthofanorange]

Nothing more than Putin waving his hammer and sickle at the west, the sooner we stand up to him the sooner he backs down.

You are basically gambling, then, using the highest possible stakes.

 

[birthofanorange]

nobody can be 100 % certain of anything. What a silly question to ask. It's typical of some of the nonsense posted on this thread.

If you want to know if I THINK on the balance of probability would Putin would turn to using nuclear warheads, the answer is ...no. Madmen don't pontficate for years wondering how the West will react to his attempt to draw Ukraine back into his circle.

He has now seen how the West will react.....and I suggest that he is probably, more than pleasantly surprised and relieved. Not everyone in the Kremlin wants to commit suicide despite the impressions this forum and some of the media are trying to tell you.

I desperately want the scumbag Putin to fail. Appeasement ( IMHO ) is not the way.

Okay, you don't believe he would - I believe he would, hence my stand on this.

 

[British Bulldog]

You are basically gambling, then, using the highest possible stakes.

What is Putin doing? gambling on making the rest of the world back down with his nuclear threat and targeting a nuclear power station in Ukraine? He needs stopping as 1 mad man can't hold the world to ransom.

 

[birthofanorange]

What is Putin doing? gambling on making the rest of the world back down with his nuclear threat and targeting a nuclear power station in Ukraine? He needs stopping as 1 mad man can't hold the world to ransom.

Fine, then we stop him by ending the world. Great. You don't think he'd do it, so I understand where you're coming from, and I hope you understand that I believe differently.

 

[BRIGHT ON Q]

It's a shame there is such a thing as nukes as NATO would absolutely level Russia given the chance.
But then if it wasn't for his 'nuke parachute ' he probably wouldn't have attacked in the first place.

 

[portlock seagull]

It goes through a chain of command. As I posted the other day when Kruschev and Kennedy were at loggerheads over Cuba, it was a Russian officer who used common sense that prevented nuclear weapons being fired.
No nuclear warhead can be fired by one person alone.

My answer is not yet, but if Putin goes further, then NATO has to stop him.

Broadly where I’m at. My understanding though is that tactical nuclear warheads (a definition that there’s no common agreement on) could be used by those lower down in the chain of command who have been broadly cleared/authorised to use by CiC. That’s what makes them so dangerous because by their use, an escalation to more strategic weapons could easily occur and Putin would be directly responsible for these / probably would given his perverse thinking ie he would feel justified retaliating if NATO had already met fire with fire. The guy is incapable of understanding “you started it” retaliation. He’s only interested in “I’ll finish it” if anyone stands up to him as Ukraine is finding out to it’s deep cost.

 

[Giraffe]

Yes but under Ukraine operation. provide everything they possibly need, equipment, training and covert operations. Everything that we possibly can without it being clearly us v Russia.

 

[usernamed]

I keep reading how Putin is a “madman” and I think that is an image that has been keenly cultivated in the west. I’ve seen evidence of callousness, indifference to human suffering, and the kind of overt machismo that has always suggested to me that the person exhibiting it is trying too hard, but I have not seen evidence of insanity.

The public message is clearly “we are strong and fearless” but I don’t believe for a second that Putin would start a nuclear war. He has a strong sense of self-preservation, and is clearly testing to see how much we’ll swallow before we get involved.

My great fear is that every day we delay, more innocents die, the more hardened his remaining (non-deserting) troops become, and the more opportunity he has to fix his equipment and supply lines.

I fear tens of thousands more civilian deaths, Putin resupplies and repairs his gear, then we still have to go in, in the end.

 

[Braggfan]

So your prepared to sit back and sacrifice a country and god knows how many people because you don't want to die? What happens when Putin moves on to the next country and does the same?

I think that is over simplifying things to say its "because I don't want to die". I don't want humanity as a species to die, and a nuclear war will end with the destruction of life on this planet. Sending troops into the Ukraine won't save lives, if everyone is then obliterated in the ensuing nuclear war. And sending NATO troops into the Ukraine will lead to a nuclear war. Therefore we must do everything we can to find an alterantive.

 

[Baker lite]

Which is fair enough and I respect that view, I honestly do. But why would Ukraine not be winnable either? The world has turned on Russia. Everyone would like an independent free Ukraine again and I’d back a Nato supported Ukraine all day long over Putins thugs.

If NATO went into Ukraine Russia would be humiliated militarily, China would likely get involved, Putin will press the button.
Mutually assured destruction.

Putin will conquer Ukraine, he won’t rest for a minute, there will be a guerrilla war that will rage for years to come, the west will continue to fund Ukrainian rebels, just like they did the Mujahideen in the 80s, body bags full of Russian conscripts will be wept over by mother’s.
We need to hope that one of his own bumps him off.

 

[portlock seagull]

Fine, then we stop him by ending the world. Great. You don't think he'd do it, so I understand where you're coming from, and I hope you understand that I believe differently.

It’s a seriously dangerous situation and no mistake. Is it fair to let millions of Ukrainians lose their freedom and/or lives because of this madman? The answer is probably “yes”, though no one will admit it. If Ukraine can drag Russia into a decade long conflict that wastes their country but ultimately sees Putin defeated then again, yes it will be worth it. If Russia occupies Ukraine and then attacks another country, NATO member or not, then you could say Nuclear war was inevitable and the only person / people responsible is Putin and Russians. They will become the new Nazis, a century will pass before they are allowed back into civilised world after millions, probably including us, have been killed. That’s the price of madmen being allowed to walk this earth in the nuclear age. There but for the grace of god (or Putin) go I and all that.