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Is it PotG?

Thrifty non-licker
Feb 20, 2017
23,929
Sussex by the Sea
Out of interest, who do you consider to be pointless administrators and how many of them are in the NHS?

Do you know what, I have no idea. Do you? I would venture any that are around cost us all a pretty penny.

As you can see from my post, I was referring to the interesting view from HWT.

The phrase he used, "Too many of my colleagues are of the phenotype that embraces noisemaking in the context of compliance with initiatives, many their own, for upgrading practice and standards, and standard setting in an ongoing commitment to excellence." gave me food for thought.
 






drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,152
Burgess Hill
Similar to the PFI stuff in the 90s, I'll make a judgement when/if something changes. Can't see it in my lifetime. The present business model is unsustainable with increasing population and longer life expectancy with less folks paying into the system, so something needs to change sometime.

That would appear to me to be saying 'let the poor die'!
 


JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
If you think the Tories are only to blame for the NHS’s plight, I think it’s you that’s being naive.

Anyway, MODs, pop this into the bear pit where it belongs.

No chance, this woeful thread (started by one of the most notorious multi-account trolls on NSC) feeds the majority anti-government echo chamber on here so will stay. If we collected a pound for every time someone on the left claimed the Evil Tories were intent on selling off the NHS we could probably finance healthcare in the UK for at least a year. As has already been mentioned the NHS is untouchable re privatising/ selling it off ... political suicide for any government. Also, just to mention Opposition parties often lay down amendments to score political points knowing full well governments don't take them on so they can claim x government is against what is in the amendment.
 






darkwolf666

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2015
7,576
Sittingbourne, Kent
In another betrayal by the Conservative government they have voted down a clause protecting the NHS from being on the table in any future trade negotiations, amongst other clauses that would have protected our NHS.

Another concern that was written off as “project fear” has now come to pass.

If you ain’t worried now, you ain’t paying attention.


https://evolvepolitics.com/breaking...UQcQUlSrldnnv7LskC2vJP4MadjyKwpsVqNwQlb1ITa8o

Virgin Health already run my local community hospital...
 


Tim Over Whelmed

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 24, 2007
10,290
Arundel
TBP
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
51,584
Faversham
Do you know what, I have no idea. Do you? I would venture any that are around cost us all a pretty penny.

As you can see from my post, I was referring to the interesting view from HWT.

The phrase he used, "Too many of my colleagues are of the phenotype that embraces noisemaking in the context of compliance with initiatives, many their own, for upgrading practice and standards, and standard setting in an ongoing commitment to excellence." gave me food for thought.

Well, I was being a tad facetious with that sentence. I have a picture in my mind of massed ranks of Arnold J Rimmer clones jumping out of bed in the morning, exercising to the mantra 'I quest, I quest, I quest for Excellence', shortly followed by 'I must, I must, I must increase my bust'. :wink:
 


WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
26,233
I can tell you. It boils down to money and the amount a company can charge for medicines, machines, services and, in the end, staff.

There are purchasing frameworks in the UK. Giving the US 'access' would mean arrangements to give US companies preference and even monopoly of supply of medicines, equipment, services and, later on staff.

It is exactly the same as the chlorinated chicken situation, something simpler to follow. If laws are changed so that a chicken can be sold in the UK, that is labled 'British chicken' (because it was defrosted in Port Sunlight) and 'fresh chicken' (because the animal was frozen within 2 hours of slaughter), without any requirement that it also says 'chlorinated', and with a very generous zero import tariff, in a deregulated market where a massive loss leader campaign is permitted, undercutting the domestic market, putting British chicken farmers out of business (unable to compete with US high intensity battery farming which wouldn't be legal in the UK) eventually resulting in a virtual monopoly of chicken supply from Uncle Sam (whereupon prices would rise and rise, making out chicken supply not only tasteless but also bloody expensive, then you may start to see the picture. And I haven't even mentioned atrificially increasing muscle bulk by administering high doses of antibiotic in the feed, have I? And with changes in the labeling laws, with chickens still appearing in 'Tesco own, golden fresh chicken' wrapping, we will all be none the wiser.

That's a very good example to give (particularly for Westdene, who I know is very concerned about animal welfare) but it's not as if the Government voted against protecting food hygene and animal welfare in future trade deals yesterday is it ?

What's that you say, clause 11 from yesterday's vote ? :facepalm:

But don't worry, Parliamentary Sovereignty will still maintain overall control to stop anything underhand happening. What's that, clause 4 from yesterday's vote stops Parliamentary oversight of trade deals ?

Well someone has been busy haven't they :shootself
 


Is it PotG?

Thrifty non-licker
Feb 20, 2017
23,929
Sussex by the Sea
Well, I was being a tad facetious with that sentence. I have a picture in my mind of massed ranks of Arnold J Rimmer clones jumping out of bed in the morning, exercising to the mantra 'I quest, I quest, I quest for Excellence', shortly followed by 'I must, I must, I must increase my bust'. :wink:

N.S.Sherlock.
 






The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,795
West is BEST
No chance, this woeful thread (started by one of the most notorious multi-account trolls on NSC) feeds the majority anti-government echo chamber on here so will stay. If we collected a pound for every time someone on the left claimed the Evil Tories were intent on selling off the NHS we could probably finance healthcare in the UK for at least a year. As has already been mentioned the NHS is untouchable re privatising/ selling it off ... political suicide for any government. Also, just to mention Opposition parties often lay down amendments to score political points knowing full well governments don't take them on so they can claim x government is against what is in the amendment.

Not that it’s any way relevant, but one active account, one old user name I don’t post under and haven’t for years. Just as a point of fact. As for trolling, I realise my opinions are unpopular amongst certain sectors of NSC, but please don’t mistake that for trolling. That does us both a disservice.

However, let us hope we can avoid abuse though, as this is an important topic that many (not all) people care a great deal about.

I’m learning things too. Win win :)
 


GOM

living vicariously
Aug 8, 2005
3,228
Leeds - but not the dirty bit
You don't think the work withCV19 is worth anything extra? Workers should get rewarded for going above and beyond the call of duty.
Remember over 500 healthworkers died in this crisis.

I didn't offer an opinion of what I think, merely the facts.

There are/were many other occupations that carried on working through the crisis (was that ABCD ?), Maybe everyone that did should everybody get a pay rise regardless of any previously agreed deal.
 




Is it PotG?

Thrifty non-licker
Feb 20, 2017
23,929
Sussex by the Sea
So what model do you propose that maintains free healthcare at the point of delivery?

Do you know what, my qualifications are in other areas? Similarly, I don't tell Potter to play 4-5-1 or 4-4-2.

As Clint Eastwood once said, 'A man's gotta know his limitations'.

I shall leave that to someone more versed in the healthcare budgeting field. In the same way, I would not expect someone highly trained and experienced in such a role to explain the intricacies of my vocation to me.

Something DOES need to change, and if it needs a fresh set of learned eyes to change it, streamline it and make it more efficient then so be it.
 


Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,200
The arse end of Hangleton
Well, let’s try not to descend into abuse. However, I hope you’re right. I really do.

Stop posting lies and crap and maybe there wouldn't be a reason for 'abuse' as you call it. So back to these insurance polices you think everybody has ..... ???
 


Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patron
Oct 27, 2003
21,200
The arse end of Hangleton
Those people that voted for Brexit because they didn't like Polish and Spanish nurses are going to be apoplectic when they see all the Pakistanis who come in to replace them on the cheap.

Please provide evidence or a citation for this claptrap post.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,795
West is BEST
Stop posting lies and crap and maybe there wouldn't be a reason for 'abuse' as you call it. So back to these insurance polices you think everybody has ..... ???

Lies and crap? Or things you don’t want to hear? It matters not.

Anyway, yes. Insurance policies. If the NHS became funded by patients holding private insurance policies. Uhm, well, those would be the insurance policies anyone who wanted treatment would have. So those ones.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
60,204
The Fatherland
Yes I would, but with several caveats (that can be summarized as 'be careful what you wish for' if you are disinclined to read the rest of my rant, below).

Any restructuring would be led by the administrators. Most of the leading administrators are actually medics and scientists. The system facilitates the rise of a certain phenotype - excellent memories, a joy of detail, a willingness to do anything asked of them, manipulative, devoid of conscience....

Hard as it may seem, the NHS and higher education have regular shake-ups. My department has changed its name at least 10 times in he last 30 years. Even our staff meetings have changed their names (from staff meeting to departmental meeting to departmental teaching committee meeting to departmental education committee meeting; I shit you not) The way we purchase for research and for NHS purposes has changed multiple times, using new forms every year, new platforms every few years, and new process that means I don't buy anything myelf any more because I don't know how - I just ask my lab tech to do it for me. The way research is funded changes again and again (forms, process, funding streams, criteria). The way medicines are discovered and advanced changes year on year (in a bad way, in my view; and I am the owner of a patent on a new drug so have been through the very early stages of the process....it is life-diminishing).

So the problem is internal inertia, coupled with very little scope for access from the outside to identifying what to fix or how to go about fixing.

I'll give you an example the clunkiness at a level of minutia. More than ten years ago I was made chair of training and education for our 'clinical and academic grouping' in my therapeutic area. Because my therapeutic area is run by a reseach focused medic who isn't interested in 'teaching' I have had no support, no staff, no access to process, no invitations to staff meetings and no traction to achieve anything. It suits my head of therapeutic area (I note here that our place separates teaching and research so I am in one department for teaching and another for research).

By now you should be in a deep deep sleep.....

So, to effect real change, a very smart strategy needs to be introduced that operates by slashing and burning rules, paperwork, regulation, elaboration, flying buttressess etc at every level. Unfortunately the minute a boot is put in from outside the whole thing will grind to a halt.

And as an aside, sadly, for those on NSC who wanted to leave the EU to ditch all the red tape, the English are the absolute masters of creating red tape. We create red tape in order to organise a process to reduce red tape. We invent new red tape to monitor how the red tape reduction intiative is performing against a range of performance indicators. We create new red tape to evaluate the fitness of the red tape reduction performance indicators. We all know this :lolol:

We have only ourselves to blame. My dear colleagues have spent hundreds of man hours on a Covid back-to-work plan. So, to access my office I need to book it, so that it can be assured by monitoring that numbers are regulated on my floor to facilitate social distancing (this is reviewed regularly as the definition of social distance is varied by HMG). My office is too small to have its own process written. So its process has been linked to that of a nearby laboratory. To book access to my office I therefore have to book the lab. I can't book he lab without doing a risk assessment for use of the lab. I have already done that per Covid, but we are in the process now of writing new risk assessments because of Covid. It is my job to obtain the old risk assessment and write a new one. That hen has to be sent to a committee for approval. It is a 30 page document. I also have to take an online Covid awarness training course. I can't do that till I have done the risk assessment. This process is recognised to be suboptimal so it will be reviewed by a subcommittee shortly. And you wonder why I have decided to stay working from home till we have a vaccine?

Are we ****ed? Not yet. Crisis is the best way of yielding disruptive change. I suspect that Dominic Cummings has that written above his desk. With that I would agree. I would much prefer the disruption be different and the objectives different though. No idea what DomCu has in mind for the NHS, o be fair. But you can't have everything....

As for the NHS specifically, I think too many in it are overpaid, and they benefit from the process and obfuscation everywhere, and contribute to the inertia. Attempting to make medics do anything, other than dispense medicine, in the hospital milieu is a fool's errand, though. I can email a consultant about teaching, for example, and 9 times out of 10 will get no reply. The secretaries (some consultants have three!) filter the emails. Those medics who do teach (and they are good people) do so in timetabled blocks so won't even look at a teaching email till the block opens. I have dropped medics from teaching on the courses I run (for science/medic students) because they are institutionally unreliable, don't mark exam papers transparently, go on holoday when they are supposed to be marking exams (because they are allowed) etc. Lovely people but the context and structure of their job means they are as much use to teaching as little Aaron Connolly would be to our back four.

Anyway, I could rant all day....:wink:

What is your opinion on the price of new products post EU, and outside the EMEA? My view, put briefly, is that the UK will become a second tier nation for NDA’s and the like. A separate and a later submission equals a significant extra cost which needs to be recouped somehow. There’s also the EU law case regarding Alpha Pharma which, although EU nations negotiate prices separately, prevents excessive pricing across the bloc. The UK will lose this as well and won’t have the collective might of the biggest trading area in the world to exercise leverage in price negotiations.

It’s good news for drug companies, which the U.K. has many, not so good for patients wanting new and novel products though.

I read your posts with much interest, and also learn a lot from them, so I’m interested to know your thoughts on this matter.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,795
West is BEST
Do you know what, my qualifications are in other areas? Similarly, I don't tell Potter to play 4-5-1 or 4-4-2.

As Clint Eastwood once said, 'A man's gotta know his limitations'.

I shall leave that to someone more versed in the healthcare budgeting field. In the same way, I would not expect someone highly trained and experienced in such a role to explain the intricacies of my vocation to me.

Something DOES need to change, and if it needs a fresh set of learned eyes to change it, streamline it and make it more efficient then so be it.

In that case what makes you qualified to call for change? Doesn’t seem very constructive to call for change and then when asked what particular things you’d like changed, to reply; I dunno, just change something.
 


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