[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[peterward]

To be clear - Ukraine is entitled to self-dertermination without interference from an outside power - and Russia must be condemned for its actions. However, NATO bears significant responsibility for the Russian invasion of Ukraine - over the past number of years Nato has expanded eastwards and has positioned troops, equipment and missiles in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Romania - effectively threatening to encircle Russia if it continued this expansion.This war is the product of two competing imperialist blocs attempting to strengthen their military position.

The hypocrisy of the western powers is nauseating - While the west has been condeming Putin over the past 72 hours - they have backed the Saudi dictatorship to the hilt for the past 7 years in bombing Yemen into rubble and killing more than 400,000 people (and possibly as many as 700,000 people) in the process. They have said nothing in recent weeks about Israeli airstrikes in Damascus, Saudi airstrikes in Yemen, Turkish airstrikes in northern Iraq, American airstrikes in Somalia and an American special forces ground assault in Syria. All of these actions should be condemned just as the Russian invasion of Ukraine is condemned.

Youre wrong in much of that JRG. They're aren't many weapons or troops on the far Eastern flanks, or there wasn't before this insane gambit.

The idea that NATO is marching east to encircle Russia is a Kremlin narrative, besides it has nothing to do with what's happening here today. It was a false pretext.

All of the eastern flank newer EU/NATO nations were forced and subjugated under Moscow domination against their will. They had decades of puppet governments and were forced under Moscow's heel. Many uprisings were brutally put down and the movements yearning to be free from this shackle, like Solidarity were part of the reason the USSR collapsed.

Once it had, some of these nations of the Warsaw block took their one opportunity to join the ONLY collective defence union that could virtually guarantee their freedom from Moscow's imperial yoke. The Eastern flanks countries now free, moved westwards of their own volition and free sovereign choice.

Forced eastward oppression, chosen westward security for freedom.

We are not excused from imperialism, but we're not subjugating Iceland to join the UK.

Imperialism, spheres of influence are of previous centuries.

Any concerns on nato bases, troops can be resolved peacefully with binding agreements (which I may add Russia rarely honours)

Any sovereign nation can choose it's alliances. Turkey and Hungary are free to join Putin in his eurasian alliance abd submit to Moscow hegemony.

Poland, Lithuania, Latvia etc didn't choose that, and they chose the only mechanism to protect themselves from the revanchism Ukraine is experiencing today

Putin is terrified of freedom of speech, civic movements and a free and prosperous democracy of Slavs next door infecting his kleptocraric grip on power. Johnson said Putin must be seen to fail, Putin believes Ukrainian democracy must be seen to fail.

This is Putin paranoid self interest not Russian national interest.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm telling you like it is. People dont care about Westerners bombing and killing people in foreign countries. It is very obvious. And the reasons are also obvious.

You remind me of a 17 year old who thinks he knows it all and judges people by a few posts a day on a football forum.
You have no idea about what people care about as there are as many opinions as there are people.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The truth hurts.

We're every bit as bad as the Russians.

Hopefully one day the entire world will change for the better.

Not many of us are against the Russians. The majority of us are against Putin though.

 

[birthofanorange]

The truth hurts.

We're every bit as bad as the Russians.

Really? You actually think that? You're worse than I thought.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[tweet]1497574687202852866[/tweet]


Also, very happy to hear that our Javelins are making the occupants pay (as well as yours).

Bravo my friend. I still remember the delicious chocolate you sent in 2004. Take care.

 

[Bakero]

I did say that I wasn't going to engage with you, but seriously - **** off.

He's right though, isn't he? As a rule, the more distant the war, the less we care.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I'm telling you like it is. People dont care about Westerners bombing and killing people in foreign countries. It is very obvious. And the reasons are also obvious.

Interesting point, swanny.

I've never been keen on your fandom of Putin, but that aside there is some truth there.

Not many cared about Western bombing, not many cared about Putin bombing Chechnya, not many cared about Putin bombing Syria.

The game changer here is a lot care about Putin bombing Ukraine.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

He's right though, isn't he? As a rule, the more distant the war, the less we care.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

To be clear - Ukraine is entitled to self-dertermination without interference from an outside power - and Russia must be condemned for its actions. However, NATO bears significant responsibility for the Russian invasion of Ukraine - over the past number of years Nato has expanded eastwards and has positioned troops, equipment and missiles in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Romania - effectively threatening to encircle Russia if it continued this expansion.This war is the product of two competing imperialist blocs attempting to strengthen their military position.

The hypocrisy of the western powers is nauseating - While the west has been condeming Putin over the past 72 hours - they have backed the Saudi dictatorship to the hilt for the past 7 years in bombing Yemen into rubble and killing more than 400,000 people (and possibly as many as 700,000 people) in the process. They have said nothing in recent weeks about Israeli airstrikes in Damascus, Saudi airstrikes in Yemen, Turkish airstrikes in northern Iraq, American airstrikes in Somalia and an American special forces ground assault in Syria. All of these actions should be condemned just as the Russian invasion of Ukraine is condemned.

'The hypocrisy of the western powers' It's all about the real politic of the situation. Of course the Saudi regime is abhorrent - the reality is that the west has to deal with it. We have to deal with the world as it is - not some idealised version of it that only exists in our imagination.

 

[Swansman]

You remind me of a 17 year old who thinks he knows it all and judges people by a few posts a day on a football forum.
You have no idea about what people care about as there are as many opinions as there are people.

You remind me of someone who knows nothing, only repeating what the loudspeakers are telling you.

I have a very good idea of what people care about, it is measurable. Even if we only take a small world like NSC as the example: Yemen war going on for 8 years, 350 000+ casualties, not even a thread. Invasion of Ukraine for a few days, multiple threads. Why is that?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

'The hypocrisy of the western powers' It's all about the real politic of the situation. Of course the Saudi regime is abhorrent - the reality is that the west has to deal with it. We have to deal with the world as it is - not some idealised version of it that only exists in our imagination.

Theresa May’s husband sells arms but what can we do about it? Be careful about who we vote for but that’s about it.

 

[birthofanorange]

He's right though, isn't he? As a rule, the more distant the war, the less we care.

I'm referring to his comment about being as bad as Russia/Putin.
I find that offensive, as well as false.
Not only that, those opinions really have no place on this thread.

 

[Bakero]

Speak for yourself.

I said as a rule. I'm not sure how you can argue against it. Do you really think the general public are equally concerned no matter where the war is?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You remind me of someone who knows nothing, only repeating what the loudspeakers are telling you.

I have a very good idea of what people care about, it is measurable. Even if we only take a small world like NSC as the example: Yemen war going on for 8 years, 350 000+ casualties, not even a thread. Invasion of Ukraine for a few days, multiple threads. Why is that?

Silly boy. I am a 73 year old grandmother who has lived through many experiences and learned a lot about people and other countries. I have served in the Royal Navy, and at NATO HQ. I have a brother who has served all over the world & under NATO in Cyprus.
I have learned to use discernment, read books, watch foreign tv, and know people on the ground in various countries.
I detest the war in Yemen and donate regularly to UNICEF who do humanitarian work in Yemen. If you’re so concerned why haven’t you started threads!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Interesting point, swanny.

I've never been keen on your fandom of Putin, but that aside there is some truth there.

Not many cared about Western bombing, not many cared about Putin bombing Chechnya, not many cared about Putin bombing Syria.

The game changer here is a lot care about Putin bombing Ukraine.

I have advocated us taking in Syrian refugees many times because of the bombing but unfortunately it gets shoved into the bear pit.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I said as a rule. I'm not sure how you can argue against it. Do you really think the general public are equally concerned no matter where the war is?

Unlike the Scandinavian I don’t purport to speak for the general public. Generalisations are odious.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Theresa May’s husband sells arms but what can we do about it? Be careful about who we vote for but that’s about it.

Don't underestimate the power of the vote. It's what distinguishes us from Putin or any of the vile dictatorships that most of the world has to endure.

 

[Bakero]

Unlike the Scandinavian I don’t purport to speak for the general public. Generalisations are odious.

But when Swansman is speaking generally, why take it personally? As someone who cares, you should be sympathetic to his view.

I'm not condemning people for a caring more about things closer to home. I guess it's a basic instinct. A murder on your street is going to affect you more than one 50 miles away.

 

[Solid at the back]

This thread is getting dragged way off topic. No surprises that it's the usual poster doing it. Don't rise to it. He's a pathetic little spotty school boy, why bite?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I said as a rule. I'm not sure how you can argue against it. Do you really think the general public are equally concerned no matter where the war is?

No, but how is that kind of whataboutery relevant to this thread ? Are we supposed to stop supporting Ukraine ?