[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Zeberdi]

Sure, it's bad for the environment, but they only drill it out of the ground because countries want to buy it... including the UK and EU sadly, buying refined crude from India who bought it from Russia.

There aren't many ways that Ukraine can defend itself against the Russian attacks (genocide) on it's civilians. Hitting Russia's oil storage is one of them.

Another reason to keep pressure on Russia to stop the war it started. Whilst the environmental damage is dreadful, if I was Ukrainian and fighting for the very existence of my country I’m not sure I’d care too much about any damage done in Russia.

Not trying to derail the thread into a separate tangent - the ‘environment’ IS about the existence of a Country and its people - its inextricable. I’m certainly not defending Russia.

Environmental damage has a nuance that people commonly miss, in that if the environment is destroyed, biodiversity lost and water and air polluted, it directly and indirectly affects generations of people to come. We depend on healthy environments to survive. It‘s not just about saving trees and animals ffs.

The impact of destroying the Dam will be felt for generations:

…life has changed for local communities (hromady), who have been deprived of access to water for over a year now. A lack of drinking water, slow-burning peat fires and collapsing businesses are all contributing to a sense of desperation, coloring local attitudes to preserving the “green sea” that has appeared on the bed of the reservoir and the tough decisions that await.

Anyway, I am sickened by what’s happening around the world and in Ukraine and understand why destroying infrastructure like oil depots helps the war effort - I just can’t celebrate it knowing as I do from decades of working in the environmental sector, that the impacts of land, sea and air pollution that’s happening on a massive scale in Ukraine and less so in Russia, is going to impact generations of people to come.

The self-destructive capacity of the human race to destroy our planet and each other never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Eric the meek]

This is a big, big day for Ukraine. I hope all the operators returned home safe.

Ukraine would appear to have very good intelligence deep inside Russia. It could make all the difference.

Russia is in a state of panic. But it has other things to think about.

 

[GT49er]

Not trying to derail the thread into a separate tangent - the ‘environment’ IS about the existence of a Country and its people - its inextricable. I’m certainly not defending Russia.

Environmental damage has a nuance that people commonly miss, in that if the environment is destroyed, biodiversity lost and water and air polluted, it directly and indirectly affects generations of people to come. We depend on healthy environments to survive. It‘s not just about saving trees and animals ffs.

The impact of destroying the Dam will be felt for generations:

…life has changed for local communities (hromady), who have been deprived of access to water for over a year now. A lack of drinking water, slow-burning peat fires and collapsing businesses are all contributing to a sense of desperation, coloring local attitudes to preserving the “green sea” that has appeared on the bed of the reservoir and the tough decisions that await.

Anyway, I am sickened by what’s happening around the world and in Ukraine and understand why destroying infrastructure like oil depots helps the war effort - I just can’t celebrate it knowing as I do from decades of working in the environmental sector, that the impacts of land, sea and air pollution that’s happening on a massive scale in Ukraine and less so in Russia, is going to impact generations of people to come.

The self-destructive capacity of the human race to destroy our planet and each other never ceases to amaze me.

Well, we all - and eventually the Russian people most affected will also understand. Why has this had to happen? Only one man to blame at the end of the day.
If a free nation, fighting for its freedom, has to destroy things in the oppressor's country, even destroying the environment and bringing pollution and despair to its inhabitants - well, that's the price you pay for your leader's psychotic ambition to restore an empire which, like all empires through history, had come to its natural and inevitable end.

 

[raymondo]

Not trying to derail the thread into a separate tangent - the ‘environment’ IS about the existence of a Country and its people - its inextricable. I’m certainly not defending Russia.

Environmental damage has a nuance that people commonly miss, in that if the environment is destroyed, biodiversity lost and water and air polluted, it directly and indirectly affects generations of people to come. We depend on healthy environments to survive. It‘s not just about saving trees and animals ffs.

The impact of destroying the Dam will be felt for generations:

…life has changed for local communities (hromady), who have been deprived of access to water for over a year now. A lack of drinking water, slow-burning peat fires and collapsing businesses are all contributing to a sense of desperation, coloring local attitudes to preserving the “green sea” that has appeared on the bed of the reservoir and the tough decisions that await.

Anyway, I am sickened by what’s happening around the world and in Ukraine and understand why destroying infrastructure like oil depots helps the war effort - I just can’t celebrate it knowing as I do from decades of working in the environmental sector, that the impacts of land, sea and air pollution that’s happening on a massive scale in Ukraine and less so in Russia, is going to impact generations of people to come.

The self-destructive capacity of the human race to destroy our planet and each other never ceases to amaze me.

I don't think that environmental damage has a hidden nuance, it's obvious to me that it harms environments for future generations.
Ukraine is of course defending itself so that it MAINTAINS future generations.

Well done for all your work in the environmental sector, it's extremely important work.
If you want to start a separate thread on the environmental damage of pointless wars I shall engage with you there.

 

[Zeberdi]

I don't think that environmental damage has a hidden nuance, it's obvious to me that it harms environments for future generations.
Ukraine is of course defending itself so that it MAINTAINS future generations.

Well done for all your work in the environmental sector, it's extremely important work.
If you want to start a separate thread on the environmental damage of pointless wars I shall engage with you there.

Well after over 27,000 posts on this thread (over 4,000 from you!) the environmental impact in Ukraine/Russia had never been mentioned even in passing.

Why turn this into a polarised argument? It’s not an either or POV.

It’s on topic- this thread is about the war in Ukraine and I posted one post saying I found it difficult to be celebratory when so much environmental damage is occurring , specifically referring to the damage done by the oil refineries in Russia that are being celebrated which is on topic for THIS thread and was in response/relevant to the current discussion.

Only one man to blame at the end of the day.
If a free nation, fighting for its freedom, has to destroy things in the oppressor's country, even destroying the environment and bringing pollution and despair to its inhabitants - well, that's the price you pay for your leader's psychotic ambition to restore an empire which, like all empires through history, had come to its natural and inevitable end.

mentioning the environmental impact doesn’t make this untrue it just makes environmental destruction an additional tragedy of the war.


Anyway I have no desire to start a general discussion on a new thread thanks - especially one you have already decided should only be about pointless wars - the response here should tell you how well that would go down - numerous posts saying it’s a shame and immediately shutting down any comments about the environment with whataboutery.

A football forum isn’t the right platform to have a sensible discussion about the damage we are doing to the planet.

So point taken, the regular posters get to decide the boundaries of the discussion and what povs about the war they want to discuss.

I’ll bail out now.

 

[essbee1]

Sadly, we need to stop this nutcase in Russia *now* whatever it takes, otherwise I fear some of the rest of Europe will be in grave danger
and the environmental issues that that will cause.

 

[Triggaaar]

Doesn’t anyone think it’s really concerning that these oil refineries being targeted in Ukraine and Russia is extremely destructive on the environment?

Yes, war is horrendous for the environment.

I find it hard to feel celebratory about any oil refineries being targeted in any war-zone by any side regardless of the military advantage gained.

Russia won't stop this war unless they have to, which means this war could go on for decades, with constant damage to the environment. Damaging Russia's ability to sell oil can help bring the war to an end sooner, which will be good for the environment.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

War = damage

It damages people / lives
It damages property/ infrastructure
It damages the environment

And all in pursuit of what?
.... (rhetorical question)

As the song goes:
War, what is it good for?

 

[aardvark]

Sadly, we need to stop this nutcase in Russia *now* whatever it takes, otherwise I fear some of the rest of Europe will be in grave danger
and the environmental issues that that will cause.

This was always the case since the 1st week of the invasion/conflict, he was always going to have to be stopped militarily but various nations have kicked the can down the road. Sadly looks like there will be a wider European war to stop him. The orange lunatic doesn’t help matters either .

 

[peterward]

Yes, war is horrendous for the environment.




Russia won't stop this war unless they have to, which means this war could go on for decades, with constant damage to the environment. Damaging Russia's ability to sell oil can help bring the war to an end sooner, which will be good for the environment.

Russia is the agressor and no damage would be done anymore if they packed up and ended their imperial genocide.

Of course they won't unless forced to.

So Ukraine is left with 3 options, none of it choosing, none that are good, its only least worst, and all to try and save its people and national identity.

1. Surrender to the fascists and have your entire culture destroyed, your language banned, and many many more people executed, before those left in the ruins of Russian destruction start being brainwashed as new Russians and forced onto Russian passports.

2. Not surrender, but not hit Russia back, so this death by 1000 cuts continues unabated, allowing Russia to unilaterally bomb cities, mass murder civllians and cause horrific ecocide, before #1 above becomes reality eventually.

3. Hit Russia back, targeting the way it hits Ukraine militarily and the way it funds it?

If Russia grew flowers as its maim export, there wouldn't be so many refineries on fire. The fact it is oil that sustains its genocide. What choice does a Ukraine that wants peace and survival, truly have?

Ecocide is bad, it's terrible. 1 and 2 are worse and 3 is only viable option left to a state under fascist imperial invasion to avoid 1 or 2.

 

[Eric the meek]

Spider's Web. Why did Ukraine call it 'Spider's web'?

Is it because the main method of attack is by quadcopter drone, which looks like a spider?

We have already seen the distant airbases being targeted. These are on the margins of the Web.

But what's at the centre of the Web? Is that the ultimate goal? Moscow? The Kremlin?

 

[Eric the meek]

More bavovnas

First, in Russian-occupied Melitopol:



And now, in Tula, south of Moscow:

 

[Eric the meek]

No video on this one, but a fire is reported at an airfield in Krasnodar.

 

[raymondo]

More bavovnas

First, in Russian-occupied Melitopol:



And now, in Tula, south of Moscow:

I had to look up Hydromash...

hydromash

hydromash

www.hydromash.ru

 

[peterward]

I had to look up Hydromash...

hydromash

hydromash

www.hydromash.ru

Watery mashed potatoes?

 

[Eric the meek]

I had to look up Hydromash...

hydromash

hydromash

www.hydromash.ru

Good point. I was going to do that and got waylaid. Well, that's my excuse anyway.

You can see what is behind Ukraine's thinking. Hit all means of transport*. Trucks, bridges, trains, planes. Bring Russia - and its war machine - to a halt.

*But leave the donkeys alone. They haven't done anything.

 

[raymondo]

Watery mashed potatoes?

That was my first thought...but hydraulic landing gear is possibly a better target

 

[raymondo]

Good point. I was going to do that and got waylaid. Well, that's my excuse anyway.

You can see what is behind Ukraine's thinking. Hit all means of transport*. Trucks, bridges, trains, planes. Bring Russia - and its war machine - to a halt.

*But leave the donkeys alone. They haven't done anything.

Absolutely. Ukraine has an enormous list of very specific war-machine targets, whereas Russia has maps of city residential areas, schools and hospitals.

In a recent Jake Broe video he noted that Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge with drones shortly before detonating the explosives on the bridge support. His thought being they ensured the bridge was closed to civilian traffic before the detonation.

 

[raymondo]

These soldiers will get into trouble sharing such a video

 

[fly high]

Ukraine War: Oleksandr Usyk offers Donald Trump to live in his house to experience conflict

Ukrainian heavyweight champion Oleksandr Usyk offers his house to US president Donald Trump to experience the war in his country.

www.bbc.co.uk