Peace Ship Attacked

[Greeno]

It was Buba he reminds me of. There is a trigger that causes someone with no interest in the Albion to start posting on the board. It is a free country and all that - but I don't expect to see Greeno's views on Calderon's exit any time soon.

I'm often more than happy to sit back and watch the debate unfold whilst looking forward to Jack Straw's Falmer photos every week. However, often things which should/could be a debate turn into a one-sided tirade which is what this thread was turning into.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Dont want to be deliberately provocative, but i'm not going to take anythuing back, your parents moving you to israel when you were young doesnt alter the fact that you had little or no connection to the country when you moved there apart from the fact your ancestors may or may not have lived there and left 2000 years ago, unless you can put me right and you have more recent connections ?

I am cool with what your saying ! though i LOVE the country i was born in
if i had to make a choice Israel would win hands down so i feel my connection is a strong as you could get.

 

[User removed 4]

I am cool with what your saying ! though i LOVE the country i was born in
if i had to make a choice Israel would win hands down so i feel my connection is a strong as you could get.

Fair enough i suppose , though it disappoints me that someone born and bred in this country should owe more loyalty to another country based purely on religion, i bet your british enough when it suits you ? as for the original point on your connection to israel, you can FEEL as strong a connection as you like , the fact that you MOVED there when young doesnt strengthen your physical connection , which lets face it, is 2000 years old.

 

[Greeno]

Fair enough i suppose , though it disappoints me that someone born and bred in this country should owe more loyalty to another country based purely on religion, i bet your british enough when it suits you ? as for the original point on your connection to israel, you can FEEL as strong a connection as you like , the fact that you MOVED there when young doesnt strengthen your physical connection , which lets face it, is 2000 years old.

Bushy, in your opinion where do you draw the line with regards to when a connection vanishes? Palestinian refugees are in their third/fourth generation...Would you deny they have a connection even though they never have never lived there, never been there and were not born there?

 

[User removed 4]

Bushy, in your opinion where do you draw the line with regards to when a connection vanishes? Palestinian refugees are in their third/fourth generation...Would you deny they have a connection even though they never have never lived there, never been there and were not born there?

Thats a very tricky one indeed , obviously a connection diminishes over time and to be perfectly honest i dont feel qualified to answer it, israel isnt going away , thats plain enough, and all sides of the argument need to understand that , as for right of return etc , i really dont know , its a very complex problem.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Fair enough i suppose , though it disappoints me that someone born and bred in this country should owe more loyalty to another country based purely on religion, i bet your british enough when it suits you ? as for the original point on your connection to israel, you can FEEL as strong a connection as you like , the fact that you MOVED there when young doesnt strengthen your physical connection , which lets face it, is 2000 years old.

Bushy dont get me wrong i support the uk and not when it suits me just if i had a choice v Israel.
as jew if we assimilate to much we will disapper as a people so hence my support for a jewish state and i live a jewish life style.

ref connection my brother lives there his wife and 3 kids are born there i feel i have lots of connection i was there last week and i feel just as home as in the uk.

anyway what right have Hamas got to be there? no more then me.

 

[User removed 4]

Bushy dont get me wrong i support the uk and not when it suits me just if i had a choice v Israel.
as jew if we assimilate to much we will disapper as a people so hence my support for a jewish state and i live a jewish life style.

ref connection my brother lives there his wife and 3 kids are born there i feel i have lots of connection i was there last week and i feel just as home as in the uk.

anyway what right have Hamas got to be there? no more then me.

Thats just my point, they have far more right to be there , what on earth do you think gives jewish people the right to f*** off to all four corners of the world for 2000 years ,and to then turn up in 1948 telling everyone that they were the chosen people and that god promised them this land, so will you f*** off into a considerably smaller part of the land your family have lived on for generations please mr future hamas member ?


PS I KNOW THIS AN OVER SIMPLIFIED VERSION !!!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sorry Greeno... I posted earlier a query... have you read the Iron Wall and what did you think?

 

[Greeno]

Thats just my point, they have far more right to be there , what on earth do you think gives jewish people the right to f*** off to all four corners of the world for 2000 years ,and to then turn up in 1948 telling everyone that they were the chosen people and that god promised them this land, so will you f*** off into a considerably smaller part of the land your family have lived on for generations please mr future hamas member ?


PS I KNOW THIS AN OVER SIMPLIFIED VERSION !!!

Yet you have failed to mention that the Jewish people were expelled from such a land, that they were prevented from returning by every power that controlled it and despite this, there was still somehow a Jewish presence there the whole time albeit a very very small one. Three times a day for the last 2000 years Jews have prayed to return to the land. Do you think if they could have done they would have done, especially with all the persecution that they have suffered around the world?

Granted what you said is an oversimplified version, but nevertheless this is an important point which should not have gone unacknowledged and should be remembered.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Thats just my point, they have far more right to be there , what on earth do you think gives jewish people the right to f*** off to all four corners of the world for 2000 years ,and to then turn up in 1948 telling everyone that they were the chosen people and that god promised them this land, so will you f*** off into a considerably smaller part of the land your family have lived on for generations please mr future hamas member ?


PS I KNOW THIS AN OVER SIMPLIFIED VERSION !!!

While Bushy's comment is a bit extreme there is a lot of truth in what he says. Dazzalewis, Im not surprised you want to be there.. it really is a place of milk and honey and the Israelis have done a huge amount to make a society that it well developed and extremely comfortable. However the point remains that it is a product of the western world telling people who had lived there for hundreds of years to make room and like it or lump it. When they decided to do something about it they were universally condemned. I do not question the right to Israel's right to exist I just feel the way it was handled and the way it continues to be handled today is wrong and nothing is being done to enforce EITHER side (because it has to be both sides equally) to do something about it.

 

[Greeno]

Sorry Greeno... I posted earlier a query... have you read the Iron Wall and what did you think?

I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Avi Shlaim came to my uni a few months ago and I can't say I was persuaded by what he had to say but am still gona give his book a go over the summer. Currently reading 'A state beyond the pale' by Robin Shepherd which I would recommend.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Thats just my point, they have far more right to be there , what on earth do you think gives jewish people the right to f*** off to all four corners of the world for 2000 years ,and to then turn up in 1948 telling everyone that they were the chosen people and that god promised them this land, so will you f*** off into a considerably smaller part of the land your family have lived on for generations please mr future hamas member ?


PS I KNOW THIS AN OVER SIMPLIFIED VERSION !!!

look check you facts there was jews there before 1948 lots !!!
your just anti Israel which is your right and i guess they dont make it easy for people lile yoursef pro arab to like them at times.

but your chosen people ref makes me thing your anti semitic as well which i hope is not the case?

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Yet you have failed to mention that the Jewish people were expelled from such a land, that they were prevented from returning by every power that controlled it and despite this, there was still somehow a Jewish presence there the whole time albeit a very very small one. Three times a day for the last 2000 years Jews have prayed to return to the land. Do you think if they could have done they would have done, especially with all the persecution that they have suffered around the world?

Granted what you said is an oversimplified version, but nevertheless this is an important point which should not have gone unacknowledged and should be remembered.

Jewish were expelled from the land..... I assume you mean by the Romans... or are you talking about the Crusades or the Muslim invasions? Could you be specific. You probably have more primary source data than me so could you give dates and sources? I know for a fact that there has been a Jewish community in Istanbul for more than 600 years and that is more than half way to Jerusalem and I also know they made yearly pilgrimages to Jerusalem (this is 600years ago) as they followed the Mecca route with the Muslim pilgrims. There was also a Jewish community in Baghdad since at least the twelfth century.

Oh, and Iron Wall?

 

[dazzalewis1968]

While Bushy's comment is a bit extreme there is a lot of truth in what he says. Dazzalewis, Im not surprised you want to be there.. it really is a place of milk and honey and the Israelis have done a huge amount to make a society that it well developed and extremely comfortable. However the point remains that it is a product of the western world telling people who had lived there for hundreds of years to make room and like it or lump it. When they decided to do something about it they were universally condemned. I do not question the right to Israel's right to exist I just feel the way it was handled and the way it continues to be handled today is wrong and nothing is being done to enforce EITHER side (because it has to be both sides equally) to do something about it.

i think what your saying is a fair point!!! btw i am happy living in London.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Avi Shlaim came to my uni a few months ago and I can't say I was persuaded by what he had to say but am still gona give his book a go over the summer. Currently reading 'A state beyond the pale' by Robin Shepherd which I would recommend.

Sorry missed this

had a feeling you might not be...however seeing as he was major player for many years, the facts that he gives in his books (which are not disputed) make for uncomfortable reading for both sides.... a must-read whatever side you are on.

 

[User removed 4]

Yet you have failed to mention that the Jewish people were expelled from such a land, that they were prevented from returning by every power that controlled it and despite this, there was still somehow a Jewish presence there the whole time albeit a very very small one. Three times a day for the last 2000 years Jews have prayed to return to the land. Do you think if they could have done they would have done, especially with all the persecution that they have suffered around the world?

Granted what you said is an oversimplified version, but nevertheless this is an important point which should not have gone unacknowledged and should be remembered.

The key part of your post is the part which mentions that its 2000 years since they were expelled , unfortunate though it may be , you simply cannot use that argument.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

i think what your saying is a fair point!!! btw i am happy living in London.

And Im in the levantine city of Izmir... not so different from Jaffa

 

[User removed 4]

look check you facts there was jews there before 1948 lots !!!
your just anti Israel which is your right and i guess they dont make it easy for people lile yoursef pro arab to like them at times.

but your chosen people ref makes me thing your anti semitic as well which i hope is not the case?

nope , not anti semitic, so please dont wheel out that argument! I know there were jews before 1948, but at the time of the balfour declaration it was 90% arab, thats a fact ! also you need to check your facts if you think i have the slightest inclination towards being pro arab i think sully sums it up about right to be honest.

 

[daveinprague]

Should have given the Jews Bavaria, not Palestine.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

nope , not anti semitic, so please dont wheel out that argument! I know there were jews before 1948, but at the time of the balfour declaration it was 90% arab, thats a fact ! also you need to check your facts if you think i have the slightest inclination towards being pro arab i think sully sums it up about right to be honest.

cool was just ASKING ! but as a whole brits and the BBC are pro arab defo never a fair balance.