[Brighton] Nice Taster Of A Car-Free Central Brighton Today

[Gwylan]

The other problem with Sunday is that shops are only open for a limited time. You're not going to get a boost to retailers if they have to shut shop mid-afternoon

 

[Stat Brother]

The other problem with Sunday is that shops are only open for a limited time. You're not going to get a boost to retailers if they have to shut shop mid-afternoon

But they'll be considerably less push back.
As said the process has, and TBH for a place like Brighton really should have, to start somewhere.

Brighton by now should be so deeply entrenched in 'once a year' (a Sunday in early September seemingly the go to date) that once a month, every other Sunday, all weekend, where options that were already taken up, paving the way for 'Car Free Brighton'.
While in the background small changes are made in areas like the North Laines which are totally incompatible with cars, anyway.

There's just no point coming at this with an iron fist.

 

[Gwylan]

While in the background small changes are made in areas like the North Laines which are totally incompatible with cars, anyway.

North Laines? You've just blown it - no-one's going to take your argument seriously from now on

 

[Stat Brother]

North Laines? You've just blown it - no-one's going to take your argument seriously from now on

Good point well made.


I hope they all get run over!

 

[beorhthelm]

the North Laine shows what you can and cant do with car free areas in city centre. they have blocked cars from most the shop lined streets, pedestrianised some to become precincts with out of hours vehicle access for services. but there's still the main access through North Rd and Church St for cross city traffic. where does this go if you blocked them? If you blocked North St, West St, Queens road etc, where would all the buses and taxis go? if you ventured further with the car free zone, this problem is exacerbated, how does anyone get into the centre other than by train and a fairly long walk? or is car free not applied to public transport in this brave new vision?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

the North Laine shows what you can and cant do with car free areas in city centre. they have blocked cars from most the shop lined streets, pedestrianised some to become precincts with out of hours vehicle access for services. but there's still the main access through North Rd and Church St for cross city traffic. where does this go if you blocked them? If you blocked North St, West St, Queens road etc, where would all the buses and taxis go? if you ventured further with the car free zone, this problem is exacerbated, how does anyone get into the centre other than by train and a fairly long walk? or is car free not applied to public transport in this brave new vision?

Lovely bit of what-about-ism there, well played

 

[Stat Brother]

the North Laine shows what you can and cant do with car free areas in city centre. they have blocked cars from most the shop lined streets, pedestrianised some to become precincts with out of hours vehicle access for services. but there's still the main access through North Rd and Church St for cross city traffic. where does this go if you blocked them? If you blocked North St, West St, Queens road etc, where would all the buses and taxis go? if you ventured further with the car free zone, this problem is exacerbated, how does anyone get into the centre other than by train and a fairly long walk? or is car free not applied to public transport in this brave new vision?

Public transport is necessary, taxi's aren't.

 

[blue-shifted]

I'd be totally in favour of a car free trial day.

The limits could be something like .... Valley Gardens to the East, Preston Circus and 7 dials to the North and Montpellier Road to the West. Pretty small, but bigger than the existing car free zone before 8pm.

If this is successful, then you could try to taking out further, eg Bedford Gardens along to Grand Ave.

There are a few more issues to overcome though

What about the people who actually live in the zone? Will they be allowed to drive their cars out of it?
What's the legal situation with the NCP car parks? Presumably they are going to strongly object or sue if they are deprived of revenue from city centre car parks
What about Churchill Square? It's business model is very much based on people driving there. Would it take action against the council?
What's the status of taxis? (usually whatever they want it to be given the voice of their lobby)
Then there's the political situation. Could the local parties get together and make a collective decision on this? Or will one or more decide it's better to hang back and harvest as much political capital as possible from the inevitable short term adjustment (no need to answer this, I already know the answer)

 

[Stat Brother]

I'd be totally in favour of a car free trial day.

The limits could be something like .... Valley Gardens to the East, Preston Circus and 7 dials to the North and Montpellier Road to the West. Pretty small, but bigger than the existing car free zone before 8pm.

If this is successful, then you could try to taking out further, eg Bedford Gardens along to Grand Ave.

There are a few more issues to overcome though

What about the people who actually live in the zone? Will they be allowed to drive their cars out of it?
What's the legal situation with the NCP car parks? Presumably they are going to strongly object or sue if they are deprived of revenue from city centre car parks
What about Churchill Square? It's business model is very much based on people driving there. Would it take action against the council?
What's the status of taxis? (usually whatever they want it to be given the voice of their lobby)
Then there's the political situation. Could the local parties get together and make a collective decision on this? Or will one or more decide it's better to hang back and harvest as much political capital as possible from the inevitable short term adjustment (no need to answer this, I already know the answer)

Anything that NCP Car Parks strongly objects too has to be a good thing?

 

[Gwylan]

Then there's the political situation. Could the local parties get together and make a collective decision on this? Or will one or more decide it's better to hang back and harvest as much political capital as possible from the inevitable short term adjustment

I don't know the answer to the questions you posed - they're all interesting points that need to be answered.

But, on this, there's some remarkable unanimity between the parties when it comes to transport policies - look at the Lewes Rd bus/cycle lane. First proposed by the Tories, it was completed by the Green-led coalition. Or look at the CPZ roll-out, pretty much supported by all parties.

Given the numbers of councillors, you'd probably need just two parties agreeing to get something through. I'm sure it will happen in some form or another.

 

[beorhthelm]

Lovely bit of what-about-ism there, well played

so dismiss the questions rather than any attempt to resolve them? until you do, no one will take car free town center seriously.

 

[beorhthelm]

Public transport is necessary, taxi's aren't.

fun graphic. how does that translate to UK, where we start with 2 lanes. are you keeping or removing buses?

 

[Stat Brother]

so dismiss the questions rather than any attempt to resolve them? until you do, no one will take car free town center seriously.

Yet you ignore my answer?






As is customary on such threads my 'go to' is:-

[tweet]1083025463268831232[/tweet]


Would the proposed bridge between IKEA at Monks Farm to High Salvington only have 2 lanes for cars?

 

[blue-shifted]

Not putting my personal view here, just outlining a few of the issues the council are going to have to overcome on this.

The point is the council hasn't got the funds to risk losing a legal action on this scale ... it probably hasn't even got the money to carry out the sort of research and plan a change on this scale. It's not like there's a private company who are bringing an application and they have to approve or otherwise. This would have to be researched and pushed through off their own back. It's possible, as per the Valley Gardens Scheme, but in the current climate, without a clear consensus in favour, or it being on any parties manifesto, then no amount of logic or any number of memes are going to persuade councillors that this is the best use of their time. Just my take on it

Anything that NCP Car Parks strongly objects too has to be a good thing?

 

[Stat Brother]

fun graphic. how does that translate to UK, where we start with 2 lanes. are you keeping or removing buses?

That's the problem we don't only start with 2 lanes, the Valley Gardens project is a cracking example.

Nobody wants to to instantly ban cars, but in urban environments the car ought to be the least best option of the 4 available.

Valley Gardens has become what it is because 'more lanes means less traffic', which is obviously wrong.
There isn't just 2 lanes around there there's 1 then 2 then 1 then 3 then 2 again, back to 3, it's a mess based on a lie.

Give the 4 different transportation options with the least priority given to cars.
Unlike say access to a Park and Ride facility which needs to be the best and easiest option available to cars.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

so dismiss the questions rather than any attempt to resolve them? until you do, no one will take car free town center seriously.

Centre of town is one square mile, if that. At no point are you further than a few hundred metres from the edge. Easy enough to arrange all the transport facilities around that edge. Any unresolved questions? Just do some basic homework on how other car-free spaces manage it, then apply best practice. No rocket science required

 

[beorhthelm]

Yet you ignore my answer?

i didnt ignore your answer, i highlighted its not directly relevant to the situation in Brighton. shows 12 lanes of traffic and changing to model of using buses, cycles and cars. thats actually where we're starting from isnt it?
im not against the idea, lets see how it can be done practically to address the problems, so it could be done. firstly, need to clear up if buses are in or out. secondly need to define the area of exclusion. third to decide if we'll allow exceptions i.e. blue badges. forth is this to be confined to certain hours/days. then what are the business costs, cost of implementation, does the traffic move make other areas more congested/polluted. then whats the political appetite for this change?
I can see a block bar on cars North Street-West rd, West st-Queens rd being viable, if buses continue (difficult to get agreement without that), no vehicles to North Laine or Lanes either between 8am-8pm (allow for deliveries). but then all east-west traffic has to go down the seafront or London rd, already fairly busy areas.

i see an issue emerging here already, two voices for "car free" one accepting buses and cycles, the other excluding buses and presumably cycles. no, its not rocket science, it political and far more difficult.

 

[Stat Brother]

Centre of town is one square mile, if that. At no point are you further than a few hundred metres from the edge. Easy enough to arrange all the transport facilities around that edge. Any unresolved questions? Just do some basic homework on how other car-free spaces manage it, then apply best practice. No rocket science required

Perhaps we could get some clues from somewhere.

 

[Stat Brother]

i didnt ignore your answer, i highlighted its not directly relevant to the situation in Brighton. shows 12 lanes of traffic and changing to model of using buses, cycles and cars. thats actually where we're starting from isnt it?
im not against the idea, lets see how it can be done practically to address the problems, so it could be done. firstly, need to clear up if buses are in or out. secondly need to define the area of exclusion. third to decide if we'll allow exceptions i.e. blue badges. forth is this to be confined to certain hours/days. then what are the business costs, cost of implementation, does the traffic move make other areas more congested/polluted. then whats the political appetite for this change?
I can see a block bar on cars North Street-West rd, West st-Queens rd being viable, if buses continue (difficult to get agreement without that), no vehicles to North Laine or Lanes either between 8am-8pm (allow for deliveries). but then all east-west traffic has to go down the seafront or London rd, already fairly busy areas.

i see an issue emerging here already, two voices for "car free" one accepting buses and cycles, the other excluding buses and presumably cycles. no, its not rocket science, it political and far more difficult.

Who is saying no buses?

The whole bases of car free is having an intergrated public transport system that works for all users.

 

[beorhthelm]

Who is saying no buses?

The whole bases of car free is having an intergrated public transport system that works for all users.

THPP is: "arrange all the transport facilities around that edge".