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Poojah

Members
Nov 19, 2010
1,783
Leeds
How is he getting on?

Yeah, he’s doing alright. Been difficult for him as he signed in Jan, was just getting into his stride and then lockdown struck.

This season’s a strange one; we seem to have recruited about 40 players to try and compensate for the likely fixture congestion that will ensue at some point this season, so there’s some pretty heavy squad rotation going on. But he looks a decent player, I like him.
 

maltaseagull

Members
Feb 25, 2009
11,716
Zabbar- Malta
...and a large garden. Tory. Bear pit, etc. :lolol::lolol::lolol:

More seriously, I'm in the process of trying to re-do a family bathroom. Seems to me the best option (without spending a fortune on a bespoke designer) is pick more or less what cabinets and stuff you want, then get a decent plumber (he'll have tilers etc, or do it himself) to do it all. You'll also get a discount on all the stuff by using his account as his suppliers (HPS in my case who have a wide enough range of stuff to choose from). I can't get my head around what modular units will fit etc so will be leaving that to his recommendation........................

From recent experience, I have learned that it's better to get the plumber to either go with you or buy it for you.
We bought the toilet and flushing only to find that the fittings wouldn't match the existing bathroom and had to be taken back and exchanged.
 

Justice

Dangerous Idiot
Jun 21, 2012
14,614
Born In Shoreham
About 10 days on my own fully tiled.
Really it's the tiling which takes the time, tiny metro tiles take about 10 times longer than 2ft tiles

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk
I’m not familiar with prices in the Brighton area for a quality tradesman which I’m sure you are judging by your trade posts I would say your worth £400 a day. London where I operate is between £400-£600 a day for competent dare I say it British tradesman.

Put it like this companies pay £200-250 a day for subbies as your the boss you definitely should be charging more.
 

Lurker

56 years and counting ...
Mar 8, 2010
401
West Midlands
A fair bit of time has elapsed since I started this thread and I've finally got my arse into gear and we're trying to get something sorted ahead of Christmas. I've got a plumber lined up to do it who's done a few smaller jobs on the house before we got the keys, but the labour seems expensive.

The bathroom itself is 2.6x 2m, the materials top out at about £3.5k which I'm happy with, however for the labour (including tiling and some framing) I've been quoted £4k. This seemed on the high-side to me. Maybe I'm out of touch on this, but I wouldn't have expected to pay more in labour than for materials. Any thoughts?

Yours, one tight northern monkey....

I live in the West Midlands, so not really too helpful in terms of comparing pricing etc to either Yorkshire, Sussex or London, but this thread caught my eye due to its topicality for me.

As it happens, we are actively in the middle of having a bathroom refurbishment right now!
In fact two refurbishments ... 1. The main bathroom & 2. The En-Suite.

We are currently 5 days in, and our plumbers' original timetable said they would complete the jobs in 6 days each (i.e. a full week for each because they work all day Saturday.)
Therefore, in theory, they should finish the first re-furb tomorrow.
Now I am no expert, indeed I wouldn't even elevate my status to informed amateur, but neither am I blind ... and I really cannot see how they can possibly finish tomorrow, the job looks barely halfway through to my untrained eye!!
I digress.

We chose to go down the route that many on here have suggested, in other words to source, acquire and fund the 'goods' ourselves, and to pay a reputable 'proper' plumbing company to do the actual fitting etc.
The guys we've gone with quoted us £4.5k to refurb the main bathroom (appx 3.1m x 2.95m), and £3.9k to refurb the En-Suite (appx 2.55m x 2m).

I'm a tight Southern Monkey so I won't pretend I'm over the moon with the quotes, I'd much rather they did it for free, but I know the guys have to put bread on their families tables so I'm content that they have given me a fair price ... my contentment reinforced because I made sure I obtained 3 quotes before deciding who to use, and all 3 quotes were within less than £500 of each other for the combined two jobs, so it is clearly the going rate around here.

The guys I'm using came recommended, are a two man band, both proper fully qualified plumbers, both been on the job virtually all day, virtually every day ... plus at their own expense they brought in a labourer on day one to assist in ripping out the old bathroom, plus they've subcontracted the plastering work to proper qualified plasterers (two working together), the wall tiling to proper qualified wall tilers (two working together), the floor laying to proper qualified floor layers (two working together) and the sparky work to a proper qualified Electrician (one on his own!).
All of this work is covered by their quote ... and they've also included in their quote the painting of the ceiling plus the painting of the top half of the walls above the tiles (on the sides where we are not having floor to ceiling tiles, just half the wall tiled).
I have no idea who they will bring in to do that, but on the basis of all the other tradesmen I'm half expecting a 'proper' qualified Painter & Decorater!

The work has included constructing a fair bit of new stud walls, moving the location of the toilets, moving the location of the radiators, relocating the new vanity basin units, fitting new mirror cabinets, fitting and relocating new extractor fans, re-positioning the light switches, the hiring of the skip ... and probably other work I can't think of right now, so all in all I am satisfied that I am not being ripped off by the price quoted, and I would suggest that probably neither are you based on the quote you've mentioned.

I've been ordering the 'goods' on a piecemeal basis, some sourced from local Plumbers Merchants, but a majority sourced via t'internet, so I haven't yet sat down and worked out exactly what I've spent ............. but one thing is for sure, the labour costs are not likely to be the biggest part of the cost!

Somebody posted earlier in the thread that you could possibly be looking at £10k - £20k for a full bathroom refurb.
I think you would have to be buying Gold Plated everything to reach that sort of figure, but it is certainly true to say you cannot buy a 'decent' modern new bathroom on a low budget and that's for sure!

Hope all this helps.
Sorry to have droned on a bit, but hopefully my contribution will be useful to someone.

UTA.
 

Poojah

Members
Nov 19, 2010
1,783
Leeds
I live in the West Midlands, so not really too helpful in terms of comparing pricing etc to either Yorkshire, Sussex or London, but this thread caught my eye due to its topicality for me.

As it happens, we are actively in the middle of having a bathroom refurbishment right now!
In fact two refurbishments ... 1. The main bathroom & 2. The En-Suite.

We are currently 5 days in, and our plumbers' original timetable said they would complete the jobs in 6 days each (i.e. a full week for each because they work all day Saturday.)
Therefore, in theory, they should finish the first re-furb tomorrow.
Now I am no expert, indeed I wouldn't even elevate my status to informed amateur, but neither am I blind ... and I really cannot see how they can possibly finish tomorrow, the job looks barely halfway through to my untrained eye!!
I digress.

We chose to go down the route that many on here have suggested, in other words to source, acquire and fund the 'goods' ourselves, and to pay a reputable 'proper' plumbing company to do the actual fitting etc.
The guys we've gone with quoted us £4.5k to refurb the main bathroom (appx 3.1m x 2.95m), and £3.9k to refurb the En-Suite (appx 2.55m x 2m).

I'm a tight Southern Monkey so I won't pretend I'm over the moon with the quotes, I'd much rather they did it for free, but I know the guys have to put bread on their families tables so I'm content that they have given me a fair price ... my contentment reinforced because I made sure I obtained 3 quotes before deciding who to use, and all 3 quotes were within less than £500 of each other for the combined two jobs, so it is clearly the going rate around here.

The guys I'm using came recommended, are a two man band, both proper fully qualified plumbers, both been on the job virtually all day, virtually every day ... plus at their own expense they brought in a labourer on day one to assist in ripping out the old bathroom, plus they've subcontracted the plastering work to proper qualified plasterers (two working together), the wall tiling to proper qualified wall tilers (two working together), the floor laying to proper qualified floor layers (two working together) and the sparky work to a proper qualified Electrician (one on his own!).
All of this work is covered by their quote ... and they've also included in their quote the painting of the ceiling plus the painting of the top half of the walls above the tiles (on the sides where we are not having floor to ceiling tiles, just half the wall tiled).
I have no idea who they will bring in to do that, but on the basis of all the other tradesmen I'm half expecting a 'proper' qualified Painter & Decorater!

The work has included constructing a fair bit of new stud walls, moving the location of the toilets, moving the location of the radiators, relocating the new vanity basin units, fitting new mirror cabinets, fitting and relocating new extractor fans, re-positioning the light switches, the hiring of the skip ... and probably other work I can't think of right now, so all in all I am satisfied that I am not being ripped off by the price quoted, and I would suggest that probably neither are you based on the quote you've mentioned.

I've been ordering the 'goods' on a piecemeal basis, some sourced from local Plumbers Merchants, but a majority sourced via t'internet, so I haven't yet sat down and worked out exactly what I've spent ............. but one thing is for sure, the labour costs are not likely to be the biggest part of the cost!

Somebody posted earlier in the thread that you could possibly be looking at £10k - £20k for a full bathroom refurb.
I think you would have to be buying Gold Plated everything to reach that sort of figure, but it is certainly true to say you cannot buy a 'decent' modern new bathroom on a low budget and that's for sure!

Hope all this helps.
Sorry to have droned on a bit, but hopefully my contribution will be useful to someone.

UTA.

Very useful mate. Thanks for taking the time!
 


Rowdey

Members
Jul 7, 2003
2,462
Herne Hill
I live in the West Midlands, so not really too helpful in terms of comparing pricing etc to either Yorkshire, Sussex or London, but this thread caught my eye due to its topicality for me.

As it happens, we are actively in the middle of having a bathroom refurbishment right now!
In fact two refurbishments ... 1. The main bathroom & 2. The En-Suite.

We are currently 5 days in, and our plumbers' original timetable said they would complete the jobs in 6 days each (i.e. a full week for each because they work all day Saturday.)
Therefore, in theory, they should finish the first re-furb tomorrow.
Now I am no expert, indeed I wouldn't even elevate my status to informed amateur, but neither am I blind ... and I really cannot see how they can possibly finish tomorrow, the job looks barely halfway through to my untrained eye!!
I digress.

We chose to go down the route that many on here have suggested, in other words to source, acquire and fund the 'goods' ourselves, and to pay a reputable 'proper' plumbing company to do the actual fitting etc.
The guys we've gone with quoted us £4.5k to refurb the main bathroom (appx 3.1m x 2.95m), and £3.9k to refurb the En-Suite (appx 2.55m x 2m).

I'm a tight Southern Monkey so I won't pretend I'm over the moon with the quotes, I'd much rather they did it for free, but I know the guys have to put bread on their families tables so I'm content that they have given me a fair price ... my contentment reinforced because I made sure I obtained 3 quotes before deciding who to use, and all 3 quotes were within less than £500 of each other for the combined two jobs, so it is clearly the going rate around here.

The guys I'm using came recommended, are a two man band, both proper fully qualified plumbers, both been on the job virtually all day, virtually every day ... plus at their own expense they brought in a labourer on day one to assist in ripping out the old bathroom, plus they've subcontracted the plastering work to proper qualified plasterers (two working together), the wall tiling to proper qualified wall tilers (two working together), the floor laying to proper qualified floor layers (two working together) and the sparky work to a proper qualified Electrician (one on his own!).
All of this work is covered by their quote ... and they've also included in their quote the painting of the ceiling plus the painting of the top half of the walls above the tiles (on the sides where we are not having floor to ceiling tiles, just half the wall tiled).
I have no idea who they will bring in to do that, but on the basis of all the other tradesmen I'm half expecting a 'proper' qualified Painter & Decorater!

The work has included constructing a fair bit of new stud walls, moving the location of the toilets, moving the location of the radiators, relocating the new vanity basin units, fitting new mirror cabinets, fitting and relocating new extractor fans, re-positioning the light switches, the hiring of the skip ... and probably other work I can't think of right now, so all in all I am satisfied that I am not being ripped off by the price quoted, and I would suggest that probably neither are you based on the quote you've mentioned.

I've been ordering the 'goods' on a piecemeal basis, some sourced from local Plumbers Merchants, but a majority sourced via t'internet, so I haven't yet sat down and worked out exactly what I've spent ............. but one thing is for sure, the labour costs are not likely to be the biggest part of the cost!

Somebody posted earlier in the thread that you could possibly be looking at [I]£10k - £20k for a full bathroom refurb.
I think you would have to be buying Gold Plated everything to reach that sort of figure
[/I]
, but it is certainly true to say you cannot buy a 'decent' modern new bathroom on a low budget and that's for sure!

Hope all this helps.
Sorry to have droned on a bit, but hopefully my contribution will be useful to someone.

UTA.

Looking at the underlined.. you are indeed in that bracket.. right..?
 

Lurker

56 years and counting ...
Mar 8, 2010
401
West Midlands
Looking at the underlined.. you are indeed in that bracket.. right..?

:lolol:
Not quite, but fair to say we're not doing it on the cheap!

The way I view it is we've lived here for nearly 13 years with the original bathroom and we'll probably have this new bathroom for another 13 years or so?
Therefore, one heavyish refurb cost now ... when divided into 25+ years ... won't seem so expensive, whatever the final figure.

That's what I keep telling myself anyway! :D
 

Rowdey

Members
Jul 7, 2003
2,462
Herne Hill
:lolol:
Not quite, but fair to say we're not doing it on the cheap!

The way I view it is we've lived here for nearly 13 years with the original bathroom and we'll probably have this new bathroom for another 13 years or so?
Therefore, one heavyish refurb cost now ... when divided into 25+ years ... won't seem so expensive, whatever the final figure.

That's what I keep telling myself anyway! :D

Damn close i'd say..! (And i'm not popping you for it at all) but more in reply as you did refer to my quote that bathrooms can easily cost £10-20k up here in London. :smile:

I built a business on higher end bathrooms/wet rooms for over 10 years, and none of them would say they were being conned (three that were plus £15k, i have subsequently fitted and still maintain full central heating systems for) so would always back up customers choice to spend their money how and with who they choose.
 

SIMMO SAYS

Members
Jul 31, 2012
11,568
Incommunicado
:lolol:
Not quite, but fair to say we're not doing it on the cheap!

The way I view it is we've lived here for nearly 13 years with the original bathroom and we'll probably have this new bathroom for another 13 years or so?
Therefore, one heavyish refurb cost now ... when divided into 25+ years ... won't seem so expensive, whatever the final figure.

That's what I keep telling myself anyway! :D

The only thing I would have to say is the time they said it would take.
Certainly the main bathroom timescale looks a bit hopeful.
The plaster needs to dry before tiling or decorating as well.
Anyway good luck :thumbsup:
 

Lurker

56 years and counting ...
Mar 8, 2010
401
West Midlands
The only thing I would have to say is the time they said it would take.
Certainly the main bathroom timescale looks a bit hopeful.
The plaster needs to dry before tiling or decorating as well.
Anyway good luck :thumbsup:

Thanks Simmo.
Interestingly, you've actually touched on my biggest concern over the whole project ... the timescales.

I have an uncomfortable feeling that the timescale boundaries are being pushed in order to meet the deadlines.
We continue to live in the house while they're working, so I get to see the project as it evolves.
I chat with all the tradesmen when I bring them hot drinks etc, and every single one of them, without exception, are saying how incredibly busy they are, and they've got work coming out of their ears, and every single day is scheduled already, deep into 2021.

In other words, come what may, they cannot afford any hold ups.

When the Wall Tilers turned up I mentioned to them that the plaster still looked a bit wet to my untrained eye, so was that going to be a problem?
My thought process was why not leave it until it is fully dry and then do the tiling, but no ... not an option ... no need to wait, he knew what he was doing etc etc.
He clearly knows better than me, so up went the tiles, and there is probably no problem with that ................ but seeing your comment above has increased my anxiety a little! :lolol:
 

Moshe Gariani

Members
Mar 10, 2005
11,840
I’m not familiar with prices in the Brighton area for a quality tradesman which I’m sure you are judging by your trade posts I would say your worth £400 a day. London where I operate is between £400-£600 a day for competent dare I say it British tradesman.

Put it like this companies pay £200-250 a day for subbies as your the boss you definitely should be charging more.
I'm sure I can't be the only person who reads this with some bewilderment and envy. Do people really earn £500 a day as a "tradesman" these days?

£500 would be an appropriate daily rate for someone earning an annual salary of £85,000. This amount is in the top 3% of UK salaries with solicitors and chartered accountants median salary being only around £42,000 .....???

I think most people know that electricians and plumbers do pretty well but these numbers are astonishing. I am honestly considering advising my 13 year old son to investigate a career in this sort of line. With a modicum of business savvy - having people work for you - and personal charm it seems pretty straightforward to achieve a comfortable lifestyle and early retirement...!!!

How hard is it to acquire the necessary skills/qualifications of a tradesman?
 

sydney

tinky ****in winky
Jul 11, 2003
16,801
town full of eejits
I live in the West Midlands, so not really too helpful in terms of comparing pricing etc to either Yorkshire, Sussex or London, but this thread caught my eye due to its topicality for me.

As it happens, we are actively in the middle of having a bathroom refurbishment right now!
In fact two refurbishments ... 1. The main bathroom & 2. The En-Suite.

We are currently 5 days in, and our plumbers' original timetable said they would complete the jobs in 6 days each (i.e. a full week for each because they work all day Saturday.)
Therefore, in theory, they should finish the first re-furb tomorrow.
Now I am no expert, indeed I wouldn't even elevate my status to informed amateur, but neither am I blind ... and I really cannot see how they can possibly finish tomorrow, the job looks barely halfway through to my untrained eye!!
I digress.

We chose to go down the route that many on here have suggested, in other words to source, acquire and fund the 'goods' ourselves, and to pay a reputable 'proper' plumbing company to do the actual fitting etc.
The guys we've gone with quoted us £4.5k to refurb the main bathroom (appx 3.1m x 2.95m), and £3.9k to refurb the En-Suite (appx 2.55m x 2m).

I'm a tight Southern Monkey so I won't pretend I'm over the moon with the quotes, I'd much rather they did it for free, but I know the guys have to put bread on their families tables so I'm content that they have given me a fair price ... my contentment reinforced because I made sure I obtained 3 quotes before deciding who to use, and all 3 quotes were within less than £500 of each other for the combined two jobs, so it is clearly the going rate around here.

The guys I'm using came recommended, are a two man band, both proper fully qualified plumbers, both been on the job virtually all day, virtually every day ... plus at their own expense they brought in a labourer on day one to assist in ripping out the old bathroom, plus they've subcontracted the plastering work to proper qualified plasterers (two working together), the wall tiling to proper qualified wall tilers (two working together), the floor laying to proper qualified floor layers (two working together) and the sparky work to a proper qualified Electrician (one on his own!).
All of this work is covered by their quote ... and they've also included in their quote the painting of the ceiling plus the painting of the top half of the walls above the tiles (on the sides where we are not having floor to ceiling tiles, just half the wall tiled).
I have no idea who they will bring in to do that, but on the basis of all the other tradesmen I'm half expecting a 'proper' qualified Painter & Decorater!

The work has included constructing a fair bit of new stud walls, moving the location of the toilets, moving the location of the radiators, relocating the new vanity basin units, fitting new mirror cabinets, fitting and relocating new extractor fans, re-positioning the light switches, the hiring of the skip ... and probably other work I can't think of right now, so all in all I am satisfied that I am not being ripped off by the price quoted, and I would suggest that probably neither are you based on the quote you've mentioned.

I've been ordering the 'goods' on a piecemeal basis, some sourced from local Plumbers Merchants, but a majority sourced via t'internet, so I haven't yet sat down and worked out exactly what I've spent ............. but one thing is for sure, the labour costs are not likely to be the biggest part of the cost!

Somebody posted earlier in the thread that you could possibly be looking at £10k - £20k for a full bathroom refurb.
I think you would have to be buying Gold Plated everything to reach that sort of figure, but it is certainly true to say you cannot buy a 'decent' modern new bathroom on a low budget and that's for sure!

Hope all this helps.
Sorry to have droned on a bit, but hopefully my contribution will be useful to someone.

UTA.

sounds like you are getting a good job at a reasonable price ...:thumbsup:
 


Wrong-Direction

Members
Mar 10, 2013
12,775
I'm sure I can't be the only person who reads this with some bewilderment and envy. Do people really earn £500 a day as a "tradesman" these days?

£500 would be an appropriate daily rate for someone earning an annual salary of £85,000. This amount is in the top 3% of UK salaries with solicitors and chartered accountants median salary being only around £42,000 .....???

I think most people know that electricians and plumbers do pretty well but these numbers are astonishing. I am honestly considering advising my 13 year old son to investigate a career in this sort of line. With a modicum of business savvy - having people work for you - and personal charm it seems pretty straightforward to achieve a comfortable lifestyle and early retirement...!!!

How hard is it to acquire the necessary skills/qualifications of a tradesman?
You have to remember tradesmen dont work on day rate every day of the year though. I try to work on day rate if I'm doing a bathroom which might take 2 weeks but then I spend 2 weeks running around doing little jobs after. I might go a few days in a row earning absolutely nothing, pricing / picking materials up / writing bills, estimates.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
If you're going to get him to do anything, dont do plumbing as it's a ****ing pain in the arse most days!

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk
 

Wrong-Direction

Members
Mar 10, 2013
12,775
I’m not familiar with prices in the Brighton area for a quality tradesman which I’m sure you are judging by your trade posts I would say your worth £400 a day. London where I operate is between £400-£600 a day for competent dare I say it British tradesman.

Put it like this companies pay £200-250 a day for subbies as your the boss you definitely should be charging more.
There will be an increase in the new year for sure.
Must be why I have about 6 or 7 bathrooms lined up after xmas lol!

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk
 

Rowdey

Members
Jul 7, 2003
2,462
Herne Hill
You have to remember tradesmen dont work on day rate every day of the year though. I try to work on day rate if I'm doing a bathroom which might take 2 weeks but then I spend 2 weeks running around doing little jobs after. I might go a few days in a row earning absolutely nothing, pricing / picking materials up / writing bills, estimates.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
If you're going to get him to do anything, dont do plumbing as it's a ****ing pain in the arse most days!

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Cant believe we're having to justify this again, but well done on taking it on.. :lol:

What i would say, is don't be a plumber, be a sparks.. Come 4pm, it's 'right, i'm off, you've got no lights/sockets/cooker but i'll be back at 9.30 tommorow..'

Try pulling that being a plumber ' Yeah i'm off, got no water, no heating, and dont use the bog..'

And lets not even go there with the 'Guess who doesn't know what a dustpan pan and brush is.. ' :laugh:
 

Justice

Dangerous Idiot
Jun 21, 2012
14,614
Born In Shoreham
I'm sure I can't be the only person who reads this with some bewilderment and envy. Do people really earn £500 a day as a "tradesman" these days?

£500 would be an appropriate daily rate for someone earning an annual salary of £85,000. This amount is in the top 3% of UK salaries with solicitors and chartered accountants median salary being only around £42,000 .....???

I think most people know that electricians and plumbers do pretty well but these numbers are astonishing. I am honestly considering advising my 13 year old son to investigate a career in this sort of line. With a modicum of business savvy - having people work for you - and personal charm it seems pretty straightforward to achieve a comfortable lifestyle and early retirement...!!!

How hard is it to acquire the necessary skills/qualifications of a tradesman?
Ha,a recent text message which made me smile.

Hi Dave. I did the ceiling lights myself from a youtube video. I am happy to pay the £275. However your hourly rate is far higher than mine as a criminal barrister. I have had the wall plastered and the temperature gauge and others are not flush to the wall. You said the plaster would cure that but it hasn’t. Your work is otherwise impeccable......


Yes advise your son to be a sparks, plumber, heating eng, drain clearing fortune in that.

It took me 4 years to complete my apprenticeship and 25 years later I’m still going.
 

Lurker

56 years and counting ...
Mar 8, 2010
401
West Midlands
I'm sure I can't be the only person who reads this with some bewilderment and envy. Do people really earn £500 a day as a "tradesman" these days?

£500 would be an appropriate daily rate for someone earning an annual salary of £85,000. This amount is in the top 3% of UK salaries with solicitors and chartered accountants median salary being only around £42,000 .....???

I think most people know that electricians and plumbers do pretty well but these numbers are astonishing. I am honestly considering advising my 13 year old son to investigate a career in this sort of line. With a modicum of business savvy - having people work for you - and personal charm it seems pretty straightforward to achieve a comfortable lifestyle and early retirement...!!!

How hard is it to acquire the necessary skills/qualifications of a tradesman?

If your son does decide to go down the plumbing route, advise him to go self employed.
When he was younger, my Brother-in-Law qualified to be a plumber ... but took employment with the council.
He was attracted to the so called 'job for life' attitude that abounded in those days.
Big mistake!

99% of the work he ended up doing was clearing blockages and the like from council owned bathrooms.
Some of the stories he told me about the way some people live their lives were absolutely disgusting. :sick:

He stuck it for a few years but gave up in the end, and it's put him off plumbing for life.
Drives a van for a living now.
What a waste of a valuable tradesman. :(
 

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