[News] Morgan Stanley begins move away from London

[The Merry Prankster]

Believe that and you will believe anything.

I may be misunderstanding you and if so I apologise, but are you saying that Brutish debt is the fault of the EU?

 

[Spicy]

And people have the gall to celebrate this result.

I am not celebrating. Many of those who voted remain were, and now still are, harbingers of doom. The amount of hyperbole used by the remain camp was ridiculous and it may well have been for that very reason that people turned against them. I say financial institutions should give the UK a chance before running away. Those who voted remain did not know how the economy would react long term if they had won, and those of us who voted "out" never expected it to be a bed of roses either. But you seem to be saying that those who voted out should be vilified (hardly democracy). The democratic vote was "out" and maybe you should start to live with that instead of having a dig at those who had the courage to vote "out".

 

[Diego Napier]

Believe that and you will believe anything.

In which ways did the EU legislate, compel, enforce, demand, instruct, advise, suggest, imply, casually refer to or merely hint at an increased British debt burden? Was it included in the Single European Act? The Maastricht Treaty? Amsterdam? Treaty of Lisbon? If it wasn't in any of the formal treaties, perhaps it was a secret command that we were powerless to resist?

There has never been any suggestion in any agreement that the EU has any involvement with any British budget. Your implication that they have is yet another sad example of the degree of ignorance that informed the Referendum decision.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I am not celebrating. Many of those who voted remain were, and now still are, harbingers of doom. The amount of hyperbole used by the remain camp was ridiculous and it may well have been for that very reason that people turned against them. I say financial institutions should give the UK a chance before running away. Those who voted remain did not know how the economy would react long term if they had won, and those of us who voted "out" never expected it to be a bed of roses either. But you seem to be saying that those who voted out should be vilified (hardly democracy). The democratic vote was "out" and maybe you should start to live with that instead of having a dig at those who had the courage to vote "out".

This is kind of the problem I have with leavers post the result. You say give the financial institutions a chance and it'll all be okay (without saying how). You and the other leavers don't suggest how the city of London will continue to function (bringing in something like 30% of our tax revenue when denied access to the single market. Oh ho leavers say but we will have access despite the fact that everyone with any say in the matter says not without free movement of labour you won't. As that's about the only thing left out of the leavers promises, are they giving that up as well? In which case what was the point? Or are they sticking to it in which case the financial institutions will not be magically okay. Dealing with these questions needs realistic and achievable solutions. Where are they? All I hear is pie in the sky wishful thinking at the moment.

 

[Hampster Gull]

In which ways did the EU legislate, compel, enforce, demand, instruct, advise, suggest, imply, casually refer to or merely hint at an increased British debt burden? Was it included in the Single European Act? The Maastricht Treaty? Amsterdam? Treaty of Lisbon? If it wasn't in any of the formal treaties, perhaps it was a secret command that we were powerless to resist?

There has never been any suggestion in any agreement that the EU has any involvement with any British budget. Your implication that they have is yet another sad example of the degree of ignorance that informed the Referendum decision.

The level of understanding that informed many peoples votes is depressingly poor , i agree. And many EU countries hold budget surpluses

 

[Diego Napier]

I am not celebrating. Many of those who voted remain were, and now still are, harbingers of doom. The amount of hyperbole used by the remain camp was ridiculous and it may well have been for that very reason that people turned against them. I say financial institutions should give the UK a chance before running away. Those who voted remain did not know how the economy would react long term if they had won, and those of us who voted "out" never expected it to be a bed of roses either. But you seem to be saying that those who voted out should be vilified (hardly democracy). The democratic vote was "out" and maybe you should start to live with that instead of having a dig at those who had the courage to vote "out".

Wasn't 43 years of EU membership enough of a long term indicator?

 

[Half Time Pies]

The decision to run up that level of debt was made by successive British governments and was completely under our control and had nothing whatsoever to do with the EU; that's my point.

This was one of the biggest problems throughout the debate. Certain politicians and sections of the media painted this picture that all of the economic woes of the UK and the increased inequality between the rich and poor was somehow exclusively down to our membership of the EU. Understandably people felt that a vote to leave was a way out of this. People forgot about the financial crash in 2008, the subsequent monetary policy of the UK government and the Bank of England and and how this has led to the situation that we are currently in.

If we really want change we should really have been having a referendum on a radical overhaul of our debt based financial system which distributes money from the bottom 90% to the top 10%.

We can already see that leaving the EU will not change this inequality. The Bank of England is already raising the prospect of a further round of QE which will do nothing but flood financial markets with additional cash and raise, bond, share and house prices making the rich richer. The conservative government will then also likely use the weak economy as more fuel to continue its policy of Austerity which hits the poorest parts of society hardest.

So far from solving the inequality in our society unfortunately leaving the EU may actually make things worse.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is kind of the problem I have with leavers post the result. You say give the financial institutions a chance and it'll all be okay (without saying how). You and the other leavers don't suggest how the city of London will continue to function (bringing in something like 30% of our tax revenue when denied access to the single market.

the problem here is a misunderstanding of what happens in the London and The City. it is trading in currency, derivatives, options, shares, eurobonds, commodities (metals, oil, wheat, cocoa etc), other than the shares on the local stock market, they can be traded anywere and are, its just the trading has coalesed around a few financial centres, with London being the dominant in this time zone. none of it has to move to EU post leaving except eurobonds clearing, where the trading can continue outside the EU (as it already does in US, Singapore). then thres fincancial products like insurance, or investment and hedge funds dealing in any of the previous, and many business services, consultancy, legal, finance etc which people come here for. some of these services are "exported" though really you come to London or they come to you, its not a physical product that customs can sieze or put a tariff on.

so the question is just how much of this business is going to be required to move, either through necessity from regulation or desire to be inside the single market? how much needs to be in the single market to work? none of the major markets need to be in the single market to enable trading, it may limit people from easily coming and going and moving money in and out (which is actually free movement of capital, never mentioned), and would impact some services offered to europeans. this is not the picture of wholesale loss of business some want to paint.

 

[Beach Hut]

This is kind of the problem I have with leavers post the result. You say give the financial institutions a chance and it'll all be okay (without saying how). You and the other leavers don't suggest how the city of London will continue to function (bringing in something like 30% of our tax revenue when denied access to the single market. Oh ho leavers say but we will have access despite the fact that everyone with any say in the matter says not without free movement of labour you won't. As that's about the only thing left out of the leavers promises, are they giving that up as well? In which case what was the point? Or are they sticking to it in which case the financial institutions will not be magically okay. Dealing with these questions needs realistic and achievable solutions. Where are they? All I hear is pie in the sky wishful thinking at the moment.

Exactly the issue I have, a massive fall in UK Treasury taxation revenue may happen so how is the black hole filled ?

 

[cjd]

The democratic vote was "out" and maybe you should start to live with that instead of having a dig at those who had the courage to vote "out".

It is 'courage' ( or stupidity) if you decide to jump into the unknown without fear for your own safety.

It is not 'courage' to jump into the unknown and dragging people who don't want to jump to the unknown fate you want. That is utter selfishness.

Your ability to fail to understand the difference sums up many of those who voted to leave.

 

[portslade seagull]

It is 'courage' ( or stupidity) if you decide to jump into the unknown without fear for your own safety.

It is not 'courage' to jump into the unknown and dragging people who don't want to jump to the unknown fate you want. That is utter selfishness.

Your ability to fail to understand the difference sums up many of those who voted to leave.

It was a democratic vote which was put to us by the elected government. All your moaning won't make any difference. We need to move on now

 

[Beach Hut]

It was a democratic vote which was put to us by the elected government. All your moaning won't make any difference. We need to move on now

Indeed we do, however not many Brexiters seem to have any solutions to what they wanted.

 

[Brighton Mod]

Thank you Harold Macmillan.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html

UK National debt to reach over £1.5 trillion (that's £1,500,000,000,000) by the end of the year.

Big fan of the never never are you?

Clearly the national debt is down to being in the EU or coming out? Do you believe our life expectancey, the delivery of high quality care in the NHS, the openess of our society which makes the disabled, the LGBT and race relations s worse than at any time in history. Do you feel safe on the streets, can you afford to eat out, how much do you spent at the Amex each time you go, do travel abroad on holiday, do your children go to university or have a greater opportunity to do so and you think the times in which we live are worse then those which have gone before us.
I don't worry about the national debt any ore than I worry abut China invading Australia, its beyond my control, out of my reach and therefore not worth worrying about.

 

[sir albion]

Indeed we do, however not many Brexiters seem to have any solutions to what they wanted.

It was a referendum not a general election...The solutions happen once we have the elected leader

 

[cjd]

It was a democratic vote which was put to us by the elected government. All your moaning won't make any difference. We need to move on now

The poster 'Spicy' informed us it took "courage" to vote out, which I responded to.

Your inability to read properly or understand what has been written marks you down as a "leaver".....am I correct ?

 

[Hampster Gull]

It was a democratic vote which was put to us by the elected government. All your moaning won't make any difference. We need to move on now

I dont get the moaning about the "moaning". A significant proportion of the country disagrees with another significant part of the population. This isnt going away until there are credible options put forward to the country as part of a general election

 

[Diego Napier]

the problem here is a misunderstanding of what happens in the London and The City. it is trading in currency, derivatives, options, shares, eurobonds, commodities (metals, oil, wheat, cocoa etc), other than the shares on the local stock market, they can be traded anywere and are, its just the trading has coalesed around a few financial centres, with London being the dominant in this time zone. none of it has to move to EU post leaving except eurobonds clearing, where the trading can continue outside the EU (as it already does in US, Singapore). then thres fincancial products like insurance, or investment and hedge funds dealing in any of the previous, and many business services, consultancy, legal, finance etc which people come here for. some of these services are "exported" though really you come to London or they come to you, its not a physical product that customs can sieze or put a tariff on.

so the question is just how much of this business is going to be required to move, either through necessity from regulation or desire to be inside the single market? how much needs to be in the single market to work? none of the major markets need to be in the single market to enable trading, it may limit people from easily coming and going and moving money in and out (which is actually free movement of capital, never mentioned), and would impact some services offered to europeans. this is not the picture of wholesale loss of business some want to paint.

You're right, London is a financial powerhouse, the jewel in our crown and, with an economy the size of Sweden, we're heavily dependent on it's economy and success. You're also right to point out that Brexit will not result in immediate wholesale losses. The real danger though is a slow withdrawal of business, a gradual withering on the vine. Ignoring any element of tit-for-tat from European institutions, as companies make strategic decisions over the medium and long term, there will be fewer factors in London's favour and it will be a less attractive place to do business. Already, the impact of the Leave vote will no doubt be being carefully considered by the major players in the "merger" (acquisition) of the London Stock Exchange by Deutsche Boerse.

Here's another rather more fanciful consideration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526298

 

[Brighton Mod]

So you are proposing less choice and higher prices.

Why didn't the out campaign explain this in their campaign?

Why is there to be less choice? How many possessions, foods and clothes in your house come from Europe, how many from the UK and how many from elsewhere? Its a done deal, we're leaving so we need to make the best of it and the politicians and media class need to pay attention to the disenfranchised and ignored members of our society before they so vocally invite an unlimited number of overseas citizens to our shores. I don't read or see any interviews or conversations with those who lay outside the 'elites' in society, this referendum has evinced to me more than any other political campaign in my life the divisions in our society between haves and have nots and how those who consider themselves educated, intelligent or celebrated are so far away from the reality of life today.
Too many arguements in the referendum were too simplistic, as for my suggestions about what to do from here, i'm just a voter, I can only wait and see and get on with my own life controlling the issues that are close to me.

 

[portslade seagull]

You're right, London is a financial powerhouse, the jewel in our crown and, with an economy the size of Sweden, we're heavily dependent on it's economy and success. You're also right to point out that Brexit will not result in immediate wholesale losses. The real danger though is a slow withdrawal of business, a gradual withering on the vine. Ignoring any element of tit-for-tat from European institutions, as companies make strategic decisions over the medium and long term, there will be fewer factors in London's favour and it will be a less attractive place to do business. Already, the impact of the Leave vote will no doubt be being carefully considered by the major players in the "merger" (acquisition) of the London Stock Exchange by Deutsche Boerse.

Here's another rather more fanciful consideration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526298

Didn't that happen after the banking crisis though and it has bounced back

 

[The Merry Prankster]

It was a referendum not a general election...The solutions happen once we have the elected leader

Could you tell me what these solutions are so that I can decide if I want to vote for this "elected leader"?