Junior Doctors Strike

[Indurain's Lungs]

I thought there were several issues. Changing of the core hours is purely a money saving exercise by the government. I believe there are also changes to remove restrictions/financial penalties on trusts that overwork doctor which could easily lead to doctors having to work longer. Dr's who are on call will only get paid if they are called. So, you can't do anything in case you get called. You can't travel too far, you can't have drink so for giving up those sort of things, you get no compensation if the call doesn't come in. On top of this there is all this bullshit about the NHS 'becoming' a 7 day a week service. It is already. You have a heart attack on a Saturday, you get treated.

Very much this.

The on call thing is new to most and is a sneaky way to overwork. They claim lots of new limits on working but on call does not count in the hours, even if you work and they can make you work every on call.

 

[beorhthelm]

Is not, and never was, voluntary. Night and weekend working part of contracted hours. The pay is just structured so that part of it reflects the proportion of work done during "unsociable hours". Historically this ranged from 20 to 100% extra but now is either 40 or 50% and actually very poorly reflects the unsociable hours element.

this is contradictory. you cant on the one hand say the pay is structured to reflect unsociable hours then say that the extra pay for unsocial hours is being reduced. its inherent in there being an bonus for unsocial that it is not in the basic pay strucutre. its also infered that all are not going to be working unsocial hours (many docotors arent doing weekend or even evening shifts) . further, as shown in the beeb info the current unsocial element is 20-100%, and the future unsocial element is 33-50% in addition to the 11% basic increase. i do think Saturday and Sunday should be treated the same, seems an odd one to not make a consession on. later hours? debateable, lots of people work normal hours to 9 or 10.



but heres a conclusion, lets just leave it all as it is, and also retract the reduced average hours, the max hours a week and the short rota reference period. or are we to assume that the BMA does infact want all those things? breaching working conditions and unpaid overtime are issues the employees and union should be takeing legal action over directly, why arent they?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Well, you say you're not saying that, but you seemed to be suggesting that Junior Doctors should just accept what they have as they'll get the big bucks later in life - or have I misunderstood the implication from your previous post, maybe I have?

I'm simply rounding out the argument that you work bloody hard as a junior doctor but reap huge financial rewards later on. The BMA are a bloody effective professional body too, I wish there was one powerhouse accountancy body instead of 6 or 7. I don't know whether or not they're being overworked as junior doctors but instinctively I've got more sympathy for other sectors of the NHS, like nurses and midwives.

 

[beorhthelm]

On top of this there is all this bullshit about the NHS 'becoming' a 7 day a week service. It is already.

is it? my Gran went in on a Saturday couple of months ago and wasnt seen by a consultant until the Monday. i fell ill day after Christmas, considered seeing the GP, shut until Tuesday. i've no doubt there are a large number working weekends and evenings, and i dont think this dispute addresses the main gaps, it certainly isnt a 24/7 service.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

this is contradictory. you cant on the one hand say the pay is structured to reflect unsociable hours then say that the extra pay for unsocial hours is being reduced. its inherent in there being an bonus for unsocial that it is not in the basic pay strucutre. its also infered that all are not going to be working unsocial hours (many docotors arent doing weekend or even evening shifts) . further, as shown in the beeb info the current unsocial element is 20-100%, and the future unsocial element is 33-50% in addition to the 11% basic increase. i do think Saturday and Sunday should be treated the same, seems an odd one to not make a consession on. later hours? debateable, lots of people work normal hours to 9 or 10.



but heres a conclusion, lets just leave it all as it is, and also retract the reduced average hours, the max hours a week and the short rota reference period. or are we to assume that the BMA does infact want all those things? breaching working conditions and unpaid overtime are issues the employees and union should be takeing legal action over directly, why arent they?

Not contradictory, the structure has become unfit for purpose as no rota can legally attract more then 50% supplement. That is 50% increase to the base pay. That 50% is actually only for the 8 hours done on top of the standard 40.

The new system pays per hour at night/Sunday at an hourly rate equivalent to 133-150% of the hourly rate at other times (Base pay divided by 40).

Also, 99% of junior doctors do nights and weekends. If they didn't so any they would receive no "banding" and will receive a nice 11% pay rise under the new system - rewarding those who least deserve it.

 

[drew]

is it? my Gran went in on a Saturday couple of months ago and wasnt seen by a consultant until the Monday. i fell ill day after Christmas, considered seeing the GP, shut until Tuesday. i've no doubt there are a large number working weekends and evenings, and i dont think this dispute addresses the main gaps, it certainly isnt a 24/7 service.

I take it the doors to the hospital weren't locked? Also, if she needed to see a consultant as a matter of urgency then they would have been called in. As for your example, had you really wanted, you could have called the out of hours service and seen someone. I've done it before when necessary.

 

[Chicken Run]

I totally agree that the contract these fine people work under are shocking and Hunt had a chance to really move forward and reward the JD's but all I can see as usual on threads like these is political jousting.
Was it any better when this lot were IC
Frank Dobson
Alan Milburn
John Reid
Patricia Hewitt
Alan Red Baron Johnson
Andrew I wish I got the gig Burnham

And Just for equality
Andrew Lansley.

Nothing has changed people, stop secretly hoping that everyone in public services strike just so you can jump on the groovy train, ordinary people who don't spend their time on message boards, blogs and face ache are genuinely affected by all this bollox .

 

[beorhthelm]

I take it the doors to the hospital weren't locked? Also, if she needed to see a consultant as a matter of urgency then they would have been called in. As for your example, had you really wanted, you could have called the out of hours service and seen someone. I've done it before when necessary.

so you are content to consider a reduced service, any service, evenings and weekend as a 7 day a week service? differing levels of expectation and definitions obviously.

 

[drew]

so you are content to consider a reduced service, any service, evenings and weekend as a 7 day a week service? differing levels of expectation and definitions obviously.

I assume you provide a 24/7 service to all your business contacts.

The service is there. If your GP refers you to a consultant, do you really expect to see one the same day. Also, you could have seen a GP if you had to. Why isn't that acceptable?

 

[drew]

I totally agree that the contract these fine people work under are shocking and Hunt had a chance to really move forward and reward the JD's but all I can see as usual on threads like these is political jousting.
Was it any better when this lot were IC
Frank Dobson
Alan Milburn
John Reid
Patricia Hewitt
Alan Red Baron Johnson
Andrew I wish I got the gig Burnham

And Just for equality
Andrew Lansley.

Nothing has changed people, stop secretly hoping that everyone in public services strike just so you can jump on the groovy train, ordinary people who don't spend their time on message boards, blogs and face ache are genuinely affected by all this bollox .

Are you saying nothing changed under Labour or have you just googled a list of health ministers? There were changes, including the 'New Deal' which affected both nurses and doctors and, part of which, was designed to reduce the lengthy hours JDs worked previously. It wasn't perfect but then it never has been.

 

[beorhthelm]

I assume you provide a 24/7 service to all your business contacts

nope, neither i or my employer claim to provide a 24/7 service. the reduced levels of service may be acceptable, they may also lead to determental clinical outcomes, as patients take longer to be seen or seen by someone better qualified. thats really i suppose what is behind the proposition, that the normal level of service during weekdays is not the level over night and weekends, with an affect on patient health.

 

[jamie the seagull]

They complain how long their hours are.
The new contract ensures these are reduced with 11% pay increase.
But they want to keep the triple pay for the extra hours on Sat/Sun rather than having these days as part of their normal working week.
How would they continue to pay for their safari 's trips etc...

 

[drew]

They complain how long their hours are.
The new contract ensures these are reduced with 11% pay increase.
But they want to keep the triple pay for the extra hours on Sat/Sun rather than having these days as part of their normal working week.
How would they continue to pay for their safari 's trips etc...

 

[drew]

nope, neither i or my employer claim to provide a 24/7 service. the reduced levels of service may be acceptable, they may also lead to determental clinical outcomes, as patients take longer to be seen or seen by someone better qualified. thats really i suppose what is behind the proposition, that the normal level of service during weekdays is not the level over night and weekends, with an affect on patient health.

As I understood, Hunt extracted from a report what suited him but ignored the actual conclusions of the report as it didn't suit his agenda. There are statistics that show mortality is higher at the weekend but the actual causes of this have not been identified yet Hunt seems to think he knows!

 

[Kellie]

Big Hilda's gynaecology appointment is due if you want to do it and [MENTION=29916]Kellie[/MENTION] 's check up is due too so get your white coat ON

What a gentleman you are.

Luckily for me when we were f*ckbuddies I always made you put a (v. small) condom on your rancid sausage as I've since heard that fat slag Hilda is now completely riddled.

(I know you used to say that wearing one would be no use, what you didn't know was that I always squeezed a good dollop of glue into them first. Didn't you ever wonder why they never slipped off your itsy chilito?)