I agree with you on the Worthing loan however playing in the conference has to be a step up from the U23 league in my opinion. The games are much more competitive and mean a lot more. Although I think the competition is a bit of a farce, I think the checkatrade cup will be brilliant for our academy playing against lower division 'first teams', and you are right than we should aim, in time to create a better environment for development than feeling honour bound to loan out our players.
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Jordan Maguire-Drew
- Thread starter AZ Gull
- Start date
I agree with you on the Worthing loan however playing in the conference has to be a step up from the U23 league in my opinion. The games are much more competitive and mean a lot more. Although I think the competition is a bit of a farce, I think the checkatrade cup will be brilliant for our academy playing against lower division 'first teams', and you are right than we should aim, in time to create a better environment for development than feeling honour bound to loan out our players.
GT49er
Well-known member
Which is an opportunity we have now denied JMD.
The Stout Yeoman
Master Farter
I'm certain his time will come - with a goal like that I'd love to see him in the first team but for the time being he just needs to let his boots do the talking - which he is doing !
Its absolutely how the coaches within the Academy feel too, however skilled coaches with vast budgets should be able to create environments as competitive as the Vanarama games, JMD's next three games are Dover at home, North Ferriby United at home and Bromley away, crowds can go from a healthy 1000+ to disappointing 500+, whilst players back at Brighton the same age as JMD next three games are West Brom away at their stadium, Newcastle home at Checkatrade stadium and then West Ham away.
There should not be a unique competitive edge at the Dagenham games with mainly part time players, coaches and management nor should it mean more to their players as compared to young and not so young professionals trying to carve out a career within the pro game, playing against the likes of Aston Villa, Stoke City, Newcastle or Blackburn, so for me its a urban myth that too many academy coaches casually accept.
- Jun 27, 2012
- 13,911
what are the crowds going to be for those ?
Those games will have lower, less vocal crowds than the Conference games, so the crowd aspect fairly irrelevant. It really is the 'Competitive' aspect that is the crucial part, in my opinion. However much the academy staff try to 'create a competitive environment', you simply can't replicate it. The U23 matches, in whatever league format they devise, are RESERVE games. Everyone knows they are reserve games. The coaches want to win, but they are ultimately more concerned with player development. The few fans who pop along would like to win, and see a few goals, but they don't really care. because the results don't REALLY matter.
At Conference level, yes the crowds might not be huge, but the results genuinely matter to all of those there. Fans have their weekends made or ruined by your performance on a Saturday. People's JOBS depend on your performance over the season.
Its entirely different. Its by no means the right pathway for every young player, but it undoubtedly does have merits.
I cannot be sure, the only report showing a figure for this season seems to be Fulham which was 400 and I am guessing the Southend game had a comparatively decent crowd.
If however you are saying a few hundred more supporters is the key to these loan experiences and dismiss the downgrading of the overall quality of the games then thats fine but I disagree, I note that the Vanarama league attendances have 6 teams with an average under 1000 then 7 under 1500, then 5 under 2000 with the last 6 teams from 2000 ( 3 teams ) with the last three Lincoln (3200), Wrexham (4400) and Tranmere a very healthy 4800.
I am pointing out that JMD next three games of Dover, Ferriby United and Bromley is not nor should it be a better environment for him to improve as opposed to competing against West Brom, Newcastle and West Ham, the disparity in attendances if any exist should not in someway override the professional environment that should be delivered by an Academy system with a budget of £2.5 million annually.
The one thing I'd be interested to know about, and I guess it applies to JMD, but I don't ask specifically in relation to him, is how being on loan to a lower league (or non-league) club measures up against being back at the Albion in terms of day-to-day training.
We've invested a large sum of money in one of the best training facilities in the land and also have a very well resourced coaching team. We've done this because we clearly believe that this will help players develop more quickly or in a way that is better than those who don't have access to such resources.
When a young player is out on loan, he'll get no benefit from any of that will he?
I guess JMD is not that far from home, so to speak, so maybe would return to Lancing periodically.
We've invested a large sum of money in one of the best training facilities in the land and also have a very well resourced coaching team. We've done this because we clearly believe that this will help players develop more quickly or in a way that is better than those who don't have access to such resources.
When a young player is out on loan, he'll get no benefit from any of that will he?
I guess JMD is not that far from home, so to speak, so maybe would return to Lancing periodically.
- Jun 27, 2012
- 13,911
Yes the Vanarama League looks a competitive league with decent attendances.
However you seem to be arguing that the club should never loan out its academy players ? Is that right ?
You HAVE TO create a competitive environment, if as we agree it is a crucial part of a players overall development then this should be delivered within the auspices of a multi million pound academy, it shouldnt be that a postman after a hard days work is somehow deemed more competitive just because he executes a lesser number of passes and claps his hands alot, its England at its finest.
Some of these academy have had total control of these young talented players sometimes from 6 years old, you have to demand that during the continuous assessment process competitiveness is part of that, it should then be reflected in the games and even more at a critical point in their careers at U23 level, they should be no excuse of having to look and play with part time players ahead of competing against other academy graduates, many fighting for their livelihoods, its an admission that those within the academy system is failing and failing badly.
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No I concede that JMD is likely to gain something at Dagenham, but not Worthing that was for me lazy and to the detriment of him but great for those managers at Worthing.
My wider point is more of a comment on the Academy system at all clubs not just ours that unless you are Chelsea or Man Utd loaning out to Championship sides then I am less sure of its merits and more sure of the failure of our (Englands) Academy system.
If you closely analyse the clubs loans for young players then you must wonder what is Dagenham delivering above and beyond what Brightons academy should, you have cited crowds, however many are just a couple of hundred more than when competing in say 26 000 capacity Hawthorns today for our U23's.
Competitiveness I have covered in another post and the importance of winning should be transferred into an Academy at a measured rate not to detract from overall development, it shouldn't follow that encouraging development is bound to deliver failure or losses, its just illogical, you should be able to manage outcomes of games as part of the development process.
My point is that academys everywhere should have the skilled staff that can establish and create an developmental environment that neednt use outside amateur organisations, I think most academy managers quietly accept this and mostly loan out young players because they have no room for them to play games within their own system.
He's playing competitive football that matters. He's playing in matches with an intensity U23 football can not match. The EFL Trophy was brilliant for our U23s but it'll last 3 games. This is competitive senior football week in week out. Bugger the attendances, it's playing with blokes who if they don't perform could be looking for another profession! It's brilliant to see him doing well, it can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
That was my point above. The games MATTER. You cannot replicate that in a reserve team environment.
Yes, we have denied him of a couple of decent, competitive games as opposed to a whole season of them at D&R. When you do the math it's a no brainer!
Its an interesting interpretation, something held by many within the game too I may add.
However I still think that a budding footballer should care about his teams and own performance ahead of a part time player and the 'system' should ensure that he does.
If I was a Dagenham mid field player and playing part time (accepting D&R might still be full time) and a young prospect of say 21 years old with 8 months left on my contract playing in an U23 fixture perhaps against West Ham United with Chris Hughton, his assistant and other coaches in attendance and a number of scouts attending and assessing, I would expect that player to be more eager to impress than that amateur counterpart, it should matter more than the D&R player, it might not matter quite as much for the crowd granted but for the player it should.
'Should', possibly. 'Can in reality', no.
The U23 match at deserted training ground, or a nearly empty big stadium, in front of a few mums and mates, featuring a mixture of academy prospects, senior pros getting minutes in their legs after injury, and a few youth teamers making up the numbers, just cannot match the intensity of a match where league points are at stake.
The individual's performance absolutely may matter to him just as much, but the outcome of the game never will. The importance of the outcome of the game, affects everything from the effort levels, to the reactions of the crowd, the strength of feeling from team-mates and coaching staff, and thus the pressure the player is under. Ultimately it is learning to deliver their skills under genuine pressure - that will always make the loan option an important development tool.
Like I said - its not the right path for every young player, though.
Exactly. You only have to watch these games and it's very obvious. "Premier League 2" just doesn't have the intensity of a senior game and it's by playing in senior football that you find out if a player can handle themselves.
I watch our U23s a reasonable amount and bloody loved the Southend EFL Trophy game. That first 45 minutes in particular was like nothing I'd seen those players put through before. It was bloody brilliant.
LamieRobertson
Not awoke
Another goal this evening
One tough cookie
New member
Big Gully, do you ever have anything good to say about the clubs academy, you seem like a disgruntled parent or do you have an agenda with the academy or staff member in the academy.
TSB
Captain Hindsight
Just scored a very decent equaliser for Daggers in their Conference Play-off v Forest Green.
This time last year, he was helping Worthing gain promotion from the Ryman 1st. One year on, could he repeat the feat three divisions higher?
This time last year, he was helping Worthing gain promotion from the Ryman 1st. One year on, could he repeat the feat three divisions higher?