Jock Stein, Fergie and the other greats.......

[Herr Tubthumper]

All 11 players were born within 30 miles of Glasgow.

2 miles of Park Head, 30 miles of Park Head, 30 miles of Glasgow. Next call they were all Brits

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This, you had to win your domestic league and then go and keep on winning ties until you won a final a year later. And when stringing this seuqnce together there is ittle margin for error. In the current format there is plenty of room for error in the group stages...which are a bit of a doddle for big clubs.

When did penalties comes in? You can even win a Champions League without actually winning which seems a bit daft to me. Did Man U and Chelsea really win the cup? The European Cup was harder in my opinion.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm not under-mining Ferguson's success for a second, and being at a big club doesn't automatically guarantee success, yet he achieved it (eventually) in spades.

But regarding the CL, again - I can't fully agree.

I appreciate that there are more matches to be played to win the CL. However, Manchester United reached the quarter-finals on most, if not all occasions (an outstanding achievement) when they were using a format - by that stage of the competition - which was the same as the European Cup. Yet they still didn't get more than their two victories.

Also, to balance the argument more in Paisley's favour - Liverpool weren't even the biggest club in the country at the time. Manchester United, Everton, Arsenal and even Aston Villa were getting bigger crowds than Liverpool. There was a far greater 'level playing field' between clubs in comparison to the rest of the league.

But, in the Champions League era, getting to the 1/4 finals means you've already won a group stage, and a knock out match. Invariably, other than the odd underdog, the 1/4 finals of the Champions League is the 8 best sides in Europe. That was rarely the case in the old format. You only ever had 1 team from England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France (or an extra one depending on who won it the year previous). These top sides would invariably get drawn against each other in early rounds, so you'd have 1/4 finals of completely unknown teams from Sweden, or Norway, or Poland or what have you.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

When did penalties comes in? You can even win a Champions League without actually winning which seems a bit daft to me. Did Man U and Chelsea really win the cup? The European Cup was harder in my opinion.

Liverpool won the European Cup on penalties...

 

[Bold Seagull]

This, you had to win your domestic league and then go and keep on winning ties until you won a final a year later. And when stringing this seuqnce together there is ittle margin for error. In the current format there is plenty of room for error in the group stages...which are a bit of a doddle for big clubs.

Keep winning ties....there are as many knock out ties in the current format after the group stage as there were in the old format!!!*



*edit that, there is one less, but still....margin for error argument when you've basically sifted out the weaker opposition in the group stage. So much tougher now.

 

[Lenny Rider]

When did penalties comes in? You can even win a Champions League without actually winning which seems a bit daft to me. Did Man U and Chelsea really win the cup? The European Cup was harder in my opinion.

I'm with you Herr T, it was the Champions of each country and the current holders, the elite, no league runners up and also rans and it was a straight draw, no seeding, pot a, pot b bollocks, hence why Liverpool drew Forest in Round One in 1978.

 

[The Large One]

But, in the Champions League era, getting to the 1/4 finals means you've already won a group stage, and a knock out match. Invariably, other than the odd underdog, the 1/4 finals of the Champions League is the 8 best sides in Europe. That was rarely the case in the old format. You only ever had 1 team from England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France (or an extra one depending on who won it the year previous). These top sides would invariably get drawn against each other in early rounds, so you'd have 1/4 finals of completely unknown teams from Sweden, or Norway, or Poland or what have you.

USSR (European runners-up in 1972), Czechoslovakia (European champions in 1976, 3rd place in 1980), Belgium (European semi-finalists in 1972, European runners-up in 1980), Poland (WC 3rd place in 1974 and 1982) all produced teams of high quality during this period. And that's not counting the other powerhouse of the decade - the Netherlands (Internationally - two World Cup final places; Club level - 4 European Cup wins, 2 UEFA Cup wins during te 1970s)

To only list England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France as having big clubs undermine the quality of countries who had teams as good as any across Europe - but having missed the early (c.1992) gravy train, don't now.

 

[The Large One]

Liverpool won the European Cup on penalties...

Twice.

 

[Bold Seagull]

USSR (European runners-up in 1972), Czechoslovakia (European champions in 1976, 3rd place in 1980), Belgium (European semi-finalists in 1972, European runners-up in 1980), Poland (WC 3rd place in 1974 and 1982) all produced teams of high quality during this period. And that's not counting the other powerhouse of the decade - the Netherlands (Internationally - two World Cup final places; Club level - 4 European Cup wins, 2 UEFA Cup wins during te 1970s)

To only list England, Italy, Germany, Spain and France as having big clubs undermine the quality of countries who had teams as good as any across Europe - but having missed the early (c.1992) gravy train, don't now.

Yes, okay of course, the standard of the Belgium, Russian, and Czech leagues was comparable in depth to that of Spain (13 winners, 9 runners up), Italy (12 winners, 14 runners up), England (12 winners, 7 runners up) Germany (7 winners, 10 runners up).....

Could you please name the European Cup finalists from USSR, Czech, Poland given they produced such quality club sides? I'll give you the one time Belgium had a finalist, Club Brugge who arguably had the tougher run to the final than Liverpool, having beaten Juve, Athletico Madrid, although beating KuPS 9-2 in the first round must have been a tough one!

 

[MICK PATCHAM]

Big Jock knew

 

[Lenny Rider]

Yes, okay of course, the standard of the Belgium, Russian, and Czech leagues was comparable in depth to that of Spain (13 winners, 9 runners up), Italy (12 winners, 14 runners up), England (12 winners, 7 runners up) Germany (7 winners, 10 runners up).....

Could you please name the European Cup finalists from USSR, Czech, Poland given they produced such quality club sides? I'll give you the one time Belgium had a finalist, Club Brugge who arguably had the tougher run to the final than Liverpool, having beaten Juve, Athletico Madrid, although beating KuPS 9-2 in the first round must have been a tough one!

Merely the Cup Winners Cup I know but I seem to recall Gornik Zabre from Poland (1970) and Moscow Dynamo (1972) reached the final.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Merely the Cup Winners Cup I know but I seem to recall Gornik Zabre from Poland (1970) and Moscow Dynamo (1972) reached the final.

That maybe so, but we're talking about Europe's premium competition.

 

[The Large One]

Yes, okay of course, the standard of the Belgium, Russian, and Czech leagues was comparable in depth to that of Spain (13 winners, 9 runners up), Italy (12 winners, 14 runners up), England (12 winners, 7 runners up) Germany (7 winners, 10 runners up).....

Could you please name the European Cup finalists from USSR, Czech, Poland given they produced such quality club sides? I'll give you the one time Belgium had a finalist, Club Brugge who arguably had the tougher run to the final than Liverpool, having beaten Juve, Athletico Madrid, although beating KuPS 9-2 in the first round must have been a tough one!

I was talking about Bob Paisley's era.

You're right about England, West Germany and the Netherlands dominating the tournaments during that time, but similarly, Spain never won the European Cup (in fact, didn't win it from 1966 to 1992), nor Italy (1969 to 1985). Spain had a fallow period of the Cup-Winners' Cup in that time (no wins from 1963 to 1979), nor Italy (1961 to 1989) and UEFA Cup/Inter Cities (1966 to 1985), with wins from Italy in 1968, 73 and 84.

In that time, USSR, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Scotland (twice) and Belgium (twice) won the ECWC - the competition ranked higher than the UEFA Cup - all more than Spain and on a par with Italy.

 

[atfc village]

How Paisley was never knighted is a mystery.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I was talking about Bob Paisley's era.

You're right about England, West Germany and the Netherlands dominating the tournaments during that time, but similarly, Spain never won the European Cup (in fact, didn't win it from 1966 to 1992), nor Italy (1969 to 1985). Spain had a fallow period of the Cup-Winners' Cup in that time (no wins from 1963 to 1979), one win from Italy.

In that time, USSR, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Scotland (twice) and Belgium (twice) won the ECWC - the competition ranked higher than the UEFA Cup - all more than Spain and on a par with Italy.

Nail on head!

Beautifully illustrated. At that time, because not all of the quality sides could be in the European Cup, there was great quality in the ECWC and the UEFA Cups.

Now, that same quality that was also winning the ECWC, and the UEFA are all in the Champions League. That is exactly why the current format is harder to win.

 

[The Large One]

Nail on head!

Beautifully illustrated. At that time, because not all of the quality sides could be in the European Cup, there was great quality in the ECWC and the UEFA Cups.

Now, that same quality that was also winning the ECWC, and the UEFA are all in the Champions League. That is exactly why the current format is harder to win.

So you're saying the the ECWC and the UEFA Cup were stronger competitions?

Yet teams from 'lesser' countries still won it. So when Belgian, Hungarian, Georgian and even a Corsican side got into the final, and hardly any Spanish and Italian sides did, it was because the 'big' teams cancelled each other out in the early rounds?

 

[Lenny Rider]

How Paisley was never knighted is a mystery.

Prominent supporter of Labour during the Thatcher years?

 

[atfc village]

All Uefa Cup Finals 68 /69 Bratislava 3 Barca 2 73 /74 Magdeburg 2 Ac Milan 0 Attendance 4641 74 /75 Kiev 3 Ferancvaros 0 80 /81 Tblisi 2 Carls Zeiss Jena 1 Att 4750 all good winners from the Eastern block

 

[Bold Seagull]

So you're saying the the ECWC and the UEFA Cup were stronger competitions?

Yet teams from 'lesser' countries still won it. So when Belgian, Hungarian, Georgian and even a Corsican side got into the final, and hardly any Spanish and Italian sides did, it was because the 'big' teams cancelled each other out in the early rounds?

Oh dear, I know you can spin and argument round and round, but this is ridiculous. You just avoid the bigger points as you have no answer to them, so you just spin out these sub arguments, on and on you could go, we'll probably get into the relative squad strengths of Saint Etienne or Malmo at this rate. I can't help you if you can't face up to the salient point of a post.

 

[Bwian]

Go on then WHO?

Bob Paisley
Joe Fagan

If Paisley had started out as manager at the same age as Ferguson we'd be talking about him being the greatest of all time-and he was a decent human being too.