Jock Stein, Fergie and the other greats.......

[The Large One]

Oh dear, I know you can spin and argument round and round, but this is ridiculous. You just avoid the bigger points as you have no answer to them, so you just spin out these sub arguments, on and on you could go, we'll probably get into the relative squad strengths of Saint Etienne or Malmo at this rate. I can't help you if you can't face up to the salient point of a post.

In that case, I'm not sure of your point.

You're saying that - at present - there are more 'big clubs' to face in order to win the CL than before in the old days. That much I get.

However, back in those days (Liverpool's successful period) you still had to face the big clubs of the day in order to win - just fewer of them. Just looking up the stats, someone was dismissive of Club Brugge's standing - yet they knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup three times in the 1970s, before getting to the final in 1978.

Liverpool still had to get past the 'big clubs' of the day come quarter-final time in the same way Manchester United do/did.

The point I'm trying to get to is that Bob Paisley took his club side to three European Cup Finals - and won them all - in his first seven years. Ferguson - even if you consider that the CL is much harder - got his side to the final four times in the CL's first 21 years, and won two and lost two. Given the relative size of Liverpool in those days, and the relative size of Manchester United now (in comparison to their European peers, not to each other), I think it underlines Bob Paisley's achievements over Ferguson's on that score.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Bob Paisley
Joe Fagan

If Paisley had started out as manager at the same age as Ferguson we'd be talking about him being the greatest of all time-and he was a decent human being too.

We'll obviously never know, but Paisley took over an incredibly successful side already, and managed for just 9 years at the one club he'd been at all his life. That isn't to belittle his achievements, but he never got to a point of adversity with the Liverpool, the fact their success continued unabated with Fagan and then Dalgleish does reinforce that there was something at Liverpool greater than simply the manager given the success didn't waiver for 4 different managers.

Ferguson did it at St Mirren, broke the Old Firm dominance with Aberdeen (not been achieved in Scotland since), then sustained 20 years of success with ManUtd. 16 League titles, 14 domestic cups, 4 major european trophies. It's so hard to argue with his record.

 

[Gwylan]

We'll obviously never know, but Paisley took over an incredibly successful side

That's not really true though is it. He took over a club that, in the previous five years, had one FA Cup victory to boast about. Liverpool weren't struggling but they were scarcely "incredibly successful"

 

[Bold Seagull]

That's not really true though is it. He took over a club that, in the previous five years, had one FA Cup victory to boast about. Liverpool weren't struggling but they were scarcely "incredibly successful"

Does the League and UEFA Cup double in '73 not count then!?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

That's not really true though is it. He took over a club that, in the previous five years, had one FA Cup victory to boast about. Liverpool weren't struggling but they were scarcely "incredibly successful"

Liverpool did win the League and UEFA Cup in 1973, the season before the FA Cup triumph over 1974.

 

[Gwylan]

Does the League and UEFA Cup double in '73 not count then!?

Liverpool did win the League and UEFA Cup in 1973, the season before the FA Cup triumph over 1974.

Oops...forgot that one.

Still, don't think they were incredibly successful but clearly doing more than OK

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Ferguson was a phenomenal success both sides of the border, and triumphed with a small club against the Old Firm, and with a big club with huge pressure and decades of underachievement. For that, his record eclipses Stein who was not a success in England (results were mixed in his 44 day spell). Didn't his Celtic period also end in relative failure with Rangers getting back to back domestic hat-tricks whereas there was no doubt about Manchester United being the top dogs when Ferguson departed Old Trafford?

As for Clough, his managerial spells at Leeds, Brighton, the expensive failures of the 1980s and the relegation at Forest in the 1990s have to be set against his phenomenal successes with Derby and Forest in the 1970s.

Paisley is in with a shout but, as mentioned earlier, he had a great platform to build from (although, having said that, that brings its own pressures and unhelpful dynamics too).

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm with you Herr T, it was the Champions of each country and the current holders, the elite, no league runners up and also rans and it was a straight draw, no seeding, pot a, pot b bollocks, hence why Liverpool drew Forest in Round One in 1978.

Totally agree. I think that Arsenal have qualified for every champions league so it's no wonder they managed to get to a final. The seeded group stage is designed to favour the big teams, so with 21 rolls of the dice you're going to get lucky one year.

 

[User removed 4]

Prominent supporter of Labour during the Thatcher years?

Are you actually serious ? Please tell me you're not.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Totally agree. I think that Arsenal have qualified for every champions league so it's no wonder they managed to get to a final. The seeded group stage is designed to favour the big teams, so with 21 rolls of the dice you're going to get lucky one year.

Rubbish, the Arsenal teams of '98, '02 and the Invincibles of '04 would have stood a far better chance of winning it in the old format than their multiple attempts in the current one.

I'd wager they'd have a European Cup or two on their role of honours board had we not been banned in '89 and '91, and the old format for '98, '02 and '04.

I mean Villa had one shot at the thing and won it, and they were a one season title winning wonder if ever there was one. At least Forest had the decency to win the European Cup and finish runners-up in the league the following year when they retained it.

 

[*Gullsworth*]

Bob Paisley
Joe Fagan

If Paisley had started out as manager at the same age as Ferguson we'd be talking about him being the greatest of all time-and he was a decent human being too.

If if if if..................Ferguson done it all. Paisley seemed a decent human being but that fact alone does not make him a greater manager IMHO. I doubt Paisley would have lasted as long as Ferguson in Today's cut throat competition but then he may have excelled in it.
Anyway has everyone who voices their opinion on Paisley being a "better human being" than Ferguson been on first name terms with either of the legends?

 

[Lenny Rider]

Are you actually serious ? Please tell me you're not.

I was just asking the question. Clearly Brucie upset the someone in the establishment for years, wondered if there was a reason why no Sir Bob?

 

[Soulman]

Fergie was in charge of one of the biggest and richest clubs in the world. In 25 years he only won 2 CL. He may have bossed the Prem and League One, but fell short in Europe.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Fergie was in charge of one of the biggest and richest clubs in the world. In 25 years he only won 2 CL. He may have bossed the Prem and League One, but fell short in Europe.

How does this compare with the other big euro managers over the same period? Who else has two or more CLs to their name?

 

[atfc village]

How does this compare with the other big euro managers over the same period? Who else has two or more CLs to their name?

Mouriniho,Hietzfeld,Del Bosque,Heynckes,Guardiola and Ancelloti in modern days.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Mouriniho,Hietzfeld,Del Bosque,Heynckes,Guardiola and Ancelloti in modern days.

Only Miguel Muñoz manager of Real Madrid in the '60's has appeared in as many finals (4) as Ferguson. Only Bob Paisley has won more (3).

 

[Soulman]

How does this compare with the other big euro managers over the same period? Who else has two or more CLs to their name?

1. Bob Paisley
Paisley, the former Liverpool manager who led the team for nine seasons, secured the club their first European Cup, and remains the only coach in history to take his side to three European Cup wins (1977, 1978 and 1981).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/top10/4967640/Top-10-Champions-League-managers.html

5. Sir Alex Ferguson
Ferguson is generally considered one of the finest managers of all time. The Manchester United manager has won the Champions League twice, the first of which was in 1999, and most recently in 2008. Ferguson could join Paisley as the only managers to win the competition on more than on two occasions.

Er, too late now eh and he had 25 years to have a good crack at it.

 

[BadFish]

But didn't Shankly take over at Liverpool when they were somewhere towards the bottom half of the then Second Division. So he built a European football powerhouse from next to nothing.

Edit - and I note I am the first one to stick up for Shankly - Good God, he was a football legend in his own lifetime.

and a man with class and humour who is fondly remembered by players and fans alike.

 

[Pavilionaire]

It has to be Sir Alex. His ability to get the best out of his players was incredible, and he was so consistent over his whole career.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The astonishing thing that I remember about Celtic winning the European Cup wasn't the birthplaces of the team, but the sheer brilliance of the performance on the day. Jock Stein deserves credit for that.