Jock Stein, Fergie and the other greats.......

[The Large One]

Winning the European Cup wasn't half the challenge that winning the Champions League is. People forget but the European Cup frequently only got remotely interesting at the quarter final stage. I'd have to concede your second point though, six in nine is indeed remarkable.

Don't strictly agree.

You don't even have to win your country's league first to win the Champions League.

While I admit it took fewer matches to win the European Cup, you had to win your domestic league first. Under the old European Cup qualification rules, Manchester United wouldn't have been able to win it in 1999.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Ferguson will go down as the greatest manager of all time. Not just because of his years at Man Utd, but because prior to that, he took a club smaller than ours to a league title and a European trophy win. His success at St Mirren (lower end of 2nd div to top of the first) is merely a footnote.

Clough was a great because he enjoyed title and European success at two different provincial clubs. But as I say, Fergie did that at Aberdeen as well as dominating England for 2 decades and winning 3 Euro trophies including the big one, twice.

Stein was a great because 10 of his 11 were born within THIRTY miles of Parkhead (not TWO!). However, it's hard to imagine anyone ever being able to do that in the modern game, so that achievement will forever stand alone.

Shankly & Paisley were a great managers, but neither achieved half as much as SAF.

Simster apologies, thirty miles does sound a bit more plausible, urban myths and all that.....

 

[Gwylan]

And you don't really need to "stick up" for Shankly - I don't think anybody is arguing that he doesn't deserve his place on Lenny Rider's original list of greats. SAF, Shankly, Paisley, Clough and Stein - we're only arguing about the order of the top 5 greatest ever British managers.

I'm not. As I said, I think Chapman should be there: won the League twice with two different teams (he died mid-way through Arsenal's hat-trick season) and virtually invented the modern football manager.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Don't strictly agree.

You don't even have to win your country's league first to win the Champions League.

While I admit it took fewer matches to win the European Cup, you had to win your domestic league first. Under the old European Cup qualification rules, Manchester United wouldn't have been able to win it in 1999.

So ManUtd under Ferguson would have had a minimum 13 shots at the old style European Cup. Taking out the 'only 4 foreign player rule' that was enforced in the mid'90's, I would wager, hypothetically of course, he would have won it a lot more than twice. Had he won it of course, he would have gained automatic entry to the following season as well.

For Forest, Villa and Liverpool, their routes were just 1st rnd, 2nd rnd, 1/4's, semi all home and away, then the final. No seeding in the draw so those first four ties were rarely as strong as a Champions League group these days.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Sir Matt Busby must be in this discussion somewhere?

3 League titles with a side with an average age of 21, in an unprecedented approach to bringing young kids into the team, going against the FA to enter the European Cup and starting to look like winning it prior to the air crash.

Not only surviving the crash and seeing 8 of his young team perish, he rebuilds a side that wins the title a further 2 times, and wins England's first European Cup.

He's definitely in the mix.

 

[brakespear]

Maybe just because of when I grew up but Paisley is the better manager out of the group suggetsed - Liverpool certainly seemed more all-conquering and infallible to me at the time than United every did during SAF's reign.

 

[User removed 4]

Was a peak Muhammad Ali better than a peak Mike Tyson or a peak Rocky Marciano ?

Yes to both, lots of heavyweights were better than a peak mike tyson.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Yes to both, lots of heavyweights were better than a peak mike tyson.

A pre Don King/Robin Givens, drugs and booze free Mike Tyson properly nutured and trained would have been the greatest heavywieght boxer the world has ever seen (even better than Tyson Fury Ernest!)

 

[User removed 4]

A pre Don King/Robin Givens, drugs and booze free Mike Tyson properly nutured and trained would have been the greatest heavywieght boxer the world has ever seen (even better than Tyson Fury Ernest!)

Sorry, but thats absolute rubbish.

 

[Seagull58]

Simster apologies, thirty miles does sound a bit more plausible, urban myths and all that.....

All 11 players were born within 30 miles of Glasgow.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Sorry, but thats absolute rubbish.

In your opinion Bushy, the Tyson I have on my PS4 fight night game, no King, no Givens, no drugs, no booze has beaten them all, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Shavers, Bruno, Quarless the lot.........

 

[Lenny Rider]

Paisley inherited a very good side, but not the dominant one. There wasn't really one dominant team around then. Leeds United, Derby County, Manchester City and Liverpool arguably made up the 'Big Four' at the time. Ipswich Town were just starting to become an emergent force.

If you take the nine years prior to him taking over, Liverpool had won...
Two league titles
Two FA Cups
One UEFA Cup

Paisley's nine-year period saw Liverpool win...
Six league titles
Three League Cups
One UEFA Cup
Three European Cups

It was Bob Paisley who turned Liverpool into England's dominant force. His work was continued by Joe Fagin and Kenny Dalglish.

TLO never looked at the Shankly/Paisley 9 year stats, certainly tells a story, although as much as it grieves me, for Clough to win 2 European Cups with Forest, a club potentially no bigger than the Albion, puts him right up there.

 

[Bold Seagull]

In your opinion Bushy, the Tyson I have on my PS4 fight night game, no King, no Givens, no drugs, no booze has beaten them all, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Shavers, Bruno, Quarless the lot.........

As hypothesis go, this is brilliant!

 

[The Large One]

So ManUtd under Ferguson would have had a minimum 13 shots at the old style European Cup. Taking out the 'only 4 foreign player rule' that was enforced in the mid'90's, I would wager, hypothetically of course, he would have won it a lot more than twice. Had he won it of course, he would have gained automatic entry to the following season as well.

For Forest, Villa and Liverpool, their routes were just 1st rnd, 2nd rnd, 1/4's, semi all home and away, then the final. No seeding in the draw so those first four ties were rarely as strong as a Champions League group these days.

I'm not under-mining Ferguson's success for a second, and being at a big club doesn't automatically guarantee success, yet he achieved it (eventually) in spades.

But regarding the CL, again - I can't fully agree.

I appreciate that there are more matches to be played to win the CL. However, Manchester United reached the quarter-finals on most, if not all occasions (an outstanding achievement) when they were using a format - by that stage of the competition - which was the same as the European Cup. Yet they still didn't get more than their two victories.

Also, to balance the argument more in Paisley's favour - Liverpool weren't even the biggest club in the country at the time. Manchester United, Everton, Arsenal and even Aston Villa were getting bigger crowds than Liverpool. There was a far greater 'level playing field' between clubs in comparison to the rest of the league.

 

[supaseagull]

Another manager who could be argued as being one of the best of British is Howard Kendall during his first spell at Goodison. He bought in good young players from lower leagues and combined them with some shrewd purchases like Andy Gray & Gary Linekar. Won 7 major trophies from 84 - 87.

I wonder whether it would have been more if Heysel hadn't have happened.

 

[User removed 4]

In your opinion Bushy, the Tyson I have on my PS4 fight night game, no King, no Givens, no drugs, no booze has beaten them all, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Shavers, Bruno, Quarless the lot.........

I'll give you louis, marciano etc but are you seriously suggesting tyson would've beaten noel quarless ? I've never seen a heavyweight better at blocking a punch with his jaw than him

 

[Bognor Bystander]

I'll also throw in Sir Bobby Robson ... Managerial skillset that includes Ipswich, managing top teams abroad and a National team - and a Gentleman !

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Don't strictly agree.

You don't even have to win your country's league first to win the Champions League.

While I admit it took fewer matches to win the European Cup, you had to win your domestic league first. Under the old European Cup qualification rules, Manchester United wouldn't have been able to win it in 1999.

This, you had to win your domestic league and then go and keep on winning ties until you won a final a year later. And when stringing this seuqnce together there is ittle margin for error. In the current format there is plenty of room for error in the group stages...which are a bit of a doddle for big clubs.