Hillsborough the search for the truth

[The Grockle]

let's just tick off one of my check list - This last piece was absolutely dispelled by the Taylor report.

carry on.

Whether the report dispelled this or not, I’ve read various accounts and draw my own conclusions. That’s not to say I feel I know more than an in depth report that takes into account evidence that’s not probably not in the public domain but just my opinion one that I’m entitled to.

Another point that is brought up each time this issue is discussed is would this tragedy have occurred had Liverpool not been playing that day? I suggest probably not but no one can argue with outdated stadia, poor policing methods and other factors it was a disaster waiting to happen. It’s a great shame it took the deaths of so many people to change football and pave the way for the safe experience we all enjoy at football today but at least there can be some positives from that awful day.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I know what happened, it was a catastrophic chain of events who's origins can be traced by to the 60's and 70's when football hooliganism saw the fences being erected to keep the 'animals' penned in.

There are so many factors that caused this disaster, my club has some blame, the police have some blame. the FA have some blame, Sheffield City Council have some blame and the late arriving supporters have some blame.

That is the truth, however you want to spin it, it was a well known fact at the time that fans of Liverpool and also Everton would converge en masse to games as close to kick off as possible to try and get in, some would have tickets, others wouldn't it. Sadly that fateful day the consequences of such actions had far reaching implications.

My heart goes out to the 96 innocent people who died at that game.

I agree to an extent with your understanding of the mitigating circumstances which contributed to the disaster, but definitly not the paragraph that I have highlighted.

As many of us will remember, South Yorkshire Police put forward this particular conspiracy shortly after that fateful day. The Taylor Report examined the facts - through H&SE analysis; the stadium's electronic monitoring system; & eye witness accounts - and found that the supporters who had already entered the Leppings Lane Stand was far below the capacity at the time of the crush that developed outside the turnstiles. Additionally, it was found that tickets were still available from Anfield for the stand the day before the match.

Unsurprisingly, Lord Justice Taylor dismissed the Police claims as a conspiracy theory (which seems to me to be a recurring theme - with regard to the statements made by the hierarchy of the South Yorkshire Constabulary about the events of that day). The Police also stated that the gates by the turnstiles had been charged by Liverpool supporters - when in actual fact Chief Constable Duckenfield had given the order to open the gates (with catastrophic consequences).

I sincerely hope that the release of the hitherto unseen Cabinet papers tomorrow starts the process of nailing many of the mistruths & downright lies that still endure. Personally, I think it's the least the families & friends of the 96 supporters who lost their life that day deserve.

 

[ROSM]

One other thing I missed off the list is that every time this gets raised people forget that in a previous semi final at Hillsborough between Spurs and Wolves in 1981, a similar thing happened with the a crush developing behind the goal at the Leppings Lane end.

But i suppose that was caused by drunk scousers turning up late too?

 

[Falkor]

Hills borough the search for the truth

One other thing I missed off the list is that every time this gets raised people forget that in a previous semi final at Hillsborough between Spurs and Wolves in 1981, a similar thing happened with the a crush developing behind the goal at the Leppings Lane end.

But i suppose that was caused by drunk scousers turning up late too?

I was going to mention this and my dad went to a west ham game there also before this tragic day, and people where also being crushed then.

It seems from other teams past problems there, there was a serious issue with the ground

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I understand that the findings will not be pleasant and will not reflect well on South Yorkshire's finest.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...losed-for-hillsborough-vigil-100252-31809848/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...-he-was-barracked-at-anfield-100252-31809276/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/09/11/hillsborough-phil-and-hilda-hammond-speak-ahead-of-the-publication-of-the-hillsborough-panel-s-report-100252-31809366/

 

[The Grockle]

Yes, because only Liverpool fans indulged in that kind of culture...

There was a high probability that there were some fans intent on doing that, but that, said Lord Justice Taylor 'was not a significant contributing factor'. In other words, it wasn't down to that that this disaster occurred. He couldn't make it plainer - yet you're choosing to re-write history to suit your own prejudices.

Of course it wasn’t just Liverpool fans who indulged in that culture, almost all Clubs had or have an element of trouble makers but it would be naïve to suggest Liverpool were not worse than average.

I’m not ignoring elements of Lord Taylors report due to prejudice against Liverpool fans or Liverpudlians I’m just mindful that it would take an extremely brave individual to pin blame on a group of supporters in the face of such anger and grief.

 

[owlsonlineadmin]

I agree to an extent with your understanding of the mitigating circumstances which contributed to the disaster, but definitly not the paragraph that I have highlighted.

As many of us will remember, South Yorkshire Police put forward this particular conspiracy shortly after that fateful day. The Taylor Report examined the facts - through H&SE analysis; the stadium's electronic monitoring system; & eye witness accounts - and found that the supporters who had already entered the Leppings Lane Stand was far below the capacity at the time of the crush that developed outside the turnstiles. Additionally, it was found that tickets were still available from Anfield for the stand the day before the match.

Unsurprisingly, Lord Justice Taylor dismissed the Police claims as a conspiracy theory (which seems to me to be a recurring theme - with regard to the statements made by the hierarchy of the South Yorkshire Constabulary about the events of that day). The Police also stated that the gates by the turnstiles had been charged by Liverpool supporters - when in actual fact Chief Constable Duckenfield had given the order to open the gates (with catastrophic consequences).

I sincerely hope that the release of the hitherto unseen Cabinet papers tomorrow starts the process of nailing many of the mistruths & downright lies that still endure. Personally, I think it's the least the families & friends of the 96 supporters who lost their life that day deserve.

CCTV evidence and turnstile counts showed the stand to around 100 undercapacity from what i've read. The mistake not directing people to the outer pens however you do have to question what loss of life there may have been had the gates not been opened, sadly it's one where we will never get the answer.

 

[The Large One]

Of course it wasn’t just Liverpool fans who indulged in that culture, almost all Clubs had or have an element of trouble makers but it would be naïve to suggest Liverpool were not worse than average.

I’m not ignoring elements of Lord Taylors report due to prejudice against Liverpool fans or Liverpudlians I’m just mindful that it would take an extremely brave individual to pin blame on a group of supporters in the face of such anger and grief.

Personally, I would be mindful that it would take an extremely brave individual to pin blame on a group of supporters in the face of such a lack of evidence.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

I guess there will rightly be a media fest if there is any indication of political interference in the original investigation or that some evidence was downplayed and other stuff embellished, nothing like a whiff of conspiracy to stir things up.

While the publication of the papers this week might allow a better understanding of the 'truth' and maybe dispell some myths, these things always seem to be an opportunity for lawyers so wonder if it will really go away.

It seems that certain newspaper Editors muddied the waters with mischievous reports and wonder if they might be asked to account for their actions.

 

[ROSM]

CCTV evidence and turnstile counts showed the stand to around 100 undercapacity from what i've read. The mistake not directing people to the outer pens however you do have to question what loss of life there may have been had the gates not been opened, sadly it's one where we will never get the answer.

would that be the CCTV that went 'missing' from the control box and was never seen again?

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I guess there will rightly be a media fest if there is any indication of political interference in the original investigation or that some evidence was downplayed and other stuff embellished, nothing like a whiff of conspiracy to stir things up.

While the publication of the papers this week might allow a better understanding of the 'truth' and maybe dispell some myths, these things always seem to be an opportunity for lawyers so wonder if it will really go away.

It seems that certain newspaper Editors muddied the waters with mischievous reports and wonder if they might be asked to account for their actions.

So accusing Liverpool supporters of picking the pockets of their own dead & urinating on the Police is merely a bit of mischief-making? I call it spiteful, ignorant, cynical & despicable.

 

[owlsonlineadmin]

would that be the CCTV that went 'missing' from the control box and was never seen again?

Did it? I thought some had been shown? If it hasn't then I'm sorry.

 

[ROSM]

I guess there will rightly be a media fest if there is any indication of political interference in the original investigation or that some evidence was downplayed and other stuff embellished, nothing like a whiff of conspiracy to stir things up.

While the publication of the papers this week might allow a better understanding of the 'truth' and maybe dispell some myths, these things always seem to be an opportunity for lawyers so wonder if it will really go away.

It seems that certain newspaper Editors muddied the waters with mischievous reports and wonder if they might be asked to account for their actions.

One of the people sitting on the panel concerning releasing the documents is Peter Sissons. A well respected braodcast journalist.

I'm slightly concerned to hear that Michael Mansfield QC and Lord Charlie Falconer will be available in Liverpool to help relatives review their options tomorrow evening. Albeit they will be working for free and mansfield particularly does have a good record in these kind of public interest areas.

 

[The Large One]

I'm slightly concerned to hear that Michael Mansfield QC and Lord Charlie Falconer will be available in Liverpool to help relatives review their options tomorrow evening. Albeit they will be working for free and mansfield particularly does have a good record in these kind of public interest areas.

That could mean anything.

I believe it was the case, for instance, that political pressure was brought to bear upon Lord Justice Taylor for a neat, swift conclusion to his report, so that it could co-incide with the government's timetable for introducing ID cards into football.

Thankfully, Taylor ignored them.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

I think this was a tragic event and as others have said it was a combination of errors that caused this, the ticketless fans, the Police,the ground etc I am sure all these contributors did not want the outcome that happened but I do not understand why this is constantly disputed or what the families are actually looking for, it was a tragic accident but surely its time to move on, I wonder do the Ibrox distasters still get brought up all the time are the famillies still looking to blame Celtic scorring or ranger scoring or the father and son who allegidly fell over causing the 71 disaster, Hillsborough was awful and tragic more than one factor at blame football grounds, police etc have all learnt from it and it is now why we have all seater stadiums move on

 

[ROSM]

Did it? I thought some had been shown? If it hasn't then I'm sorry.

Some survived - but two key ones went missing from the locked control box which should have been treated as a crime scene. These showed the view from the tunnel leading to the centre pen and also show a clearer view of the build up of people. Both of which were key points of disagreement and conjecture as to what Duckenfield should have known at the point he made his decision.

 

[ROSM]

That could mean anything.

I believe it was the case, for instance, that political pressure was brought to bear upon Lord Justice Taylor for a neat, swift conclusion to his report, so that it could co-incide with the government's timetable for introducing ID cards into football.

Thankfully, Taylor ignored them.

My point is that it will give an opportunity for people to claim ambulance chasing lawyers. I dont doubt their input will be valuable to the families and all parties.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

One of the people sitting on the panel concerning releasing the documents is Peter Sissons. A well respected braodcast journalist.

I'm slightly concerned to hear that Michael Mansfield QC and Lord Charlie Falconer will be available in Liverpool to help relatives review their options tomorrow evening. Albeit they will be working for free and mansfield particularly does have a good record in these kind of public interest areas.

Why would you be concerned about Michael Mansfield's involvement if his help is free & he "particularly does have a good record in these kind of public interest areas"?

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

So accusing Liverpool supporters of picking the pockets of their own dead & urinating on the Police is merely a bit of mischief-making? I call it spiteful, ignorant, cynical & despicable.

I entirely agree with your sentiment, but chose my words more carefully. More important was my question about Editors being asked to account for their actions, especially now we are in an era of more media accountability. It would be good to see certain Editors be asked to justify their publications and accept the consequences if they cannot produce the evidence to support them. Bring it on.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I entirely agree with your sentiment, but chose my words more carefully. More important was my question about Editors being asked to account for their actions, especially now we are in an era of more media accountability. It would be good to see certain Editors be asked to justify their publications and accept the consequences if they cannot produce the evidence to support them. Bring it on.

Gotcha.

ps I wonder if the lovely Kelvin MacKenzie would still claim claim "The Sun did not accuse anybody of anything....We were the vehicle for others"?