100 years of history.
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[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
100 years of history.
- Oct 17, 2008
- 11,051
Of course. But when Hamas attacked a sovereign state, there were always going to be repercussions.
Where I think most of us agree is that it’s gone too far now, from righteous anger and tit-for-tat to outright attempted annihilation of Palestine.
The bloodshed needs to end, but talking to some campaigners in London recently they seemed to consider Palestine (and their tolerance of Hamas) blameless in this whole bloody mess.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
They should know, they are supplying the bulk of Israel‘s weapons to fight this war. Israel wouldn’t even be able to conduct this war without US weapons imports - now worth up to an additional $14 billion since 7 October, on top of existing arms contracts.
The US has recently been selling guidance equipment to Israel to turn these ‘dumb bombs’ into precision weapons. “The guidance kits are similar to JDAMs produced by the US. JDAMs – joint direct attack munitions – are also fin and steering kits that turn unguided “dumb” bombs into guided “smart” bombs. The US began expediting the delivery of JDAMs to Israel shortly after the start of the war, a senior defence official said in late October, which was one of Israel’s top needs, along with interceptor missiles for its aerial defence systems.” ‘The U.S. has provided Israel with large bunker buster bombs, among tens of thousands of other weapons and artillery shells and while it’s the IDF ‘doing the killing, the extent of US aid has raised serious questions about American culpability. “Providing weapons that knowingly and significantly would contribute to unlawful attacks can make those providing them complicit in war crimes,” Human Rights Watch said.’
When you consider the value of arms sales to Israel for the US, you can understand why a ceasefire would not be in the US’s financial interest.
Most of Israel’s weapons imports come from the US. Now Biden is rushing even more arms.
What the US sending Israel weapons "at the speed of war" looks like.
www.vox.com
I doubt anyone with a rational mind, Palestinian or otherwise would claim the jihadist terror groups are blameless for the violence on October 7 - they have freely admitted it - but Palestinian civilians are most definitely ‘blameless’ for the genocidal slaughter going on now - it would be inhumane to say civilians deserve to be ethnically cleansed from the land they live on or ‘deserve’ the war crimes being perpetrated upon them.
As for the wider context - there are polarised views on both sides as to what came first, the chicken or the egg - violent occupation or defence against those who would resist it.
In the 3000-odd posts on this thread, I don't think anyone has ever suggested there shouldn't have been repercussions for the Hamas attacks.
No doubt those types exist now elsewhere (as do those who think Israel can do no wrong) but NSCers have universally condemned Hamas as far as I know.
- Oct 17, 2008
- 11,051
Absolutely, I wasn’t having a dig at anyone here.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
I agree - I think everyone here has condemned Hamas and no one thinks we should just let them carry on. There’s been a prevailing view in some quarters that think Israel are blameless and have conflated all Palestinians with Hamas or at least said they were inseparable - and that it was ‘Palestine’ that attacked Israel which is wrong on a number of levels - but thinking Israel is blameless has been pretty much the Government line since the war started so not surprising really.
Oh yes indeed.
if Israel had killed 10K Hamas terrorists tbh I don't think anybody would have given a shit.
It is the fact that Israel has deliberately targetted innocent civilians and killed THOUSANDS of CHILDREN. They are going to continue to do it and our political leaders, both Labour and Tory, are content to stand by and watch it happen.
Sunak and Starmer share the shame.
And also, sadly, the Opposition line too.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Broadly agree with what you're saying. I think most would agree, despite the minor differences on this thread.Tbh - I don’t know - clearly they need to be demilitarised- part of that has already happened- but flooding/contaminating Gaza’s fresh water aquifers with salt water in an act of environmental terrorism isn’t the answer, nor is killing over 10,000 infants and children. The rule of terror with which Hamas has ruled Gaza must come to an end - but something needs to fill the political vacuum that removing Hamas from power will leave - agreement on that will be hard to achieve but it is essential and must not be something imposed by the West - it has to be a joint Arab-West agreement with the full involvement of Palestinian civilian representation..
We also cannot be completely blind to the conditions that had provided a petri dish for breeding radicalism in the ME and especially in the Occupied Territories either. Israel cannot be allowed to carry on with apartheid polices, rampant settlement expansion, indiscriminate killings and collective punishments. Part of what needs to be done IMO can be done through civil and human rights regimes - undermining the power of Hamas to defraud Gazans out of Humanitarian aid by providing aid directly to civilians rather than through the Hamas authorities and restoring a system of democratic elections for people of Gaza - they have had no political choice who governs them since 2005 (there’s never been an election in Gaza - Hamas took over by violently expelling the PA). International rebuilding of infrastructure and housing with an international peace keeping force perhaps? Anything is better than what we have now but going back to the pre-October status quo isn’t a solution though.
Over 10,000 infants and children killed in Israel’s Gaza genocide, hundreds of whom are trapped beneath debris
Over 10,000 infants and children killed in Israel’s Gaza genocide, hundreds of whom are trapped beneath debriseuromedmonitor.org
There is still support for the two state solution and some support for a one state solution (which seems more unlikely at this time ) - the alternative in the meantime would be for a coalition run Arab enclave possibly under the auspices of the UN but absolutely NOT an Israeli occupation.
If they create something for Palestinians that's allowed to grow and thrive then the chance of extremism taking hold diminishes. The same probably goes for the other side - if Israelis stop feeling threatened they'll eventually end up with a moderate government. But it all needs a consensus from the Arab states, Israel and the West. I doubt the pragmatism exists in order to achieve it. This really does feel like a fork in the road, either they find a way to stop killing each other now or it will go on forever.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
Yes … as I said some weeks ago, we are both the closest to a lasting peace settlement than we have ever been, yet at the same time, the furthest away. I’m sure all of this will kick start major new peace initiatives once Israel agrees a ceasefire (that is if any Arab in the ME is still prepared to come to the table after this
)
aolstudios
Well-known member
Their stated aim. To kill all Jews
nicko31
Well-known member
It is interesting looking at the Israeli press, totally one sided and very little on what is actually happening in Gaza. Little surprise public opinion is to just keep on bombing....
aolstudios
Well-known member
That's exactly what Israel did when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Hamas won the election, killed their opponents & spent billions of aid on themselves, building tunnels (for themselves, not civilians) & bombing Israel. Every single day. Resulting in fences etc
aolstudios
Well-known member
Israel growing closer to many Arab states & crucially, about to make a deal with Saudi
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
It needs to be policed properly doesn't it, I don't think they can be left to their own devices. That can't come from the west or Israel, it must be the Arab states.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
British Destroyer on active duty in the Red Sea
And this seems extraordinary - IDF responsible for shooting dead 3 Israeli hostages emerging from a building, carrying a white flag and shirtless because the soldier responsible ‘felt under threat’ apparently - inexperienced reservists serving in the IDF, the chaos of war but more worryingly, why would they be shooting anyone with no shirt on carrying a white flag and shouting for ‘help’ in Hebrew? - Clearly the IDF thought they were Hamas but it lends credence to the suggestion that indiscriminate or punishment killings are being perpetrated on innocent civilians or even those suspected of terrorism, contrary to the Geneva Convention and humanitarian law if the white flag is being ignored. The Israeli Government and the IDF have since condemned the killings, putting distance between themselves and those that pulled the trigger.
HMS Diamond: British warship shoots down suspected attack drone in Red Sea
The Royal Navy has not shot down an aerial target in anger since 1991, the Ministry of Defence says.
www.bbc.co.uk
And this seems extraordinary - IDF responsible for shooting dead 3 Israeli hostages emerging from a building, carrying a white flag and shirtless because the soldier responsible ‘felt under threat’ apparently - inexperienced reservists serving in the IDF, the chaos of war but more worryingly, why would they be shooting anyone with no shirt on carrying a white flag and shouting for ‘help’ in Hebrew? - Clearly the IDF thought they were Hamas but it lends credence to the suggestion that indiscriminate or punishment killings are being perpetrated on innocent civilians or even those suspected of terrorism, contrary to the Geneva Convention and humanitarian law if the white flag is being ignored. The Israeli Government and the IDF have since condemned the killings, putting distance between themselves and those that pulled the trigger.
fly high
Well-known member
IDF seem to be out of control, the only excuse you could give is they are scared kids. Why are they shooting dead women in the grounds of a church? They have lost the plot, time to go home.British Destroyer on active duty in the Red Sea
HMS Diamond: British warship shoots down suspected attack drone in Red Sea
The Royal Navy has not shot down an aerial target in anger since 1991, the Ministry of Defence says.www.bbc.co.uk
And this seems extraordinary - IDF responsible for shooting dead 3 Israeli hostages emerging from a building, carrying a white flag and shirtless because the soldier responsible ‘felt under threat’ apparently - inexperienced reservists serving in the IDF, the chaos of war but more worryingly, why would they be shooting anyone with no shirt on carrying a white flag and shouting for ‘help’ in Hebrew? - Clearly the IDF thought they were Hamas but it lends credence to the suggestion that indiscriminate or punishment killings are being perpetrated on innocent civilians or even those suspected of terrorism, contrary to the Geneva Convention and humanitarian law if the white flag is being ignored. The Israeli Government and the IDF have since condemned the killings, putting distance between themselves and those that pulled the trigger.
dejavuatbtn
Well-known member
I can’t quite believe the news today. That really is the lowest of the low.
The UK has now called for a ceasefire, saying that “too many civilians have been killed."
www.theguardian.com
Israel-Gaza war: UK and Germany call for ‘sustainable’ ceasefire
UK foreign minister David Cameron and German counterpart Annalena Baerbock say goal must be peace lasting ‘generations’
www.theguardian.com