[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

What I don't know is how entrenched that Arab position is, and whether there is any scope for negotiation.

This is becoming a very worrying aspect indeed - the willingness for the Arab world to engage with the West on finding a 2 state solution is rapidly disintegrating- yet it is exactly the Gulf States - Jordan, Qatar, UAE etc and Saudis Arabia that Israel needs on board to help secure her security in the region. The voices of the Arab world at the Security Council yesterday were very clear on their condemnation of Israel and they all clearly see what is happening as genocide. As each daily bombardment carries on and more civilians die and infrastructure is destroyed, Israel’s security issues in the long term risk getting a whole lot worse not better - Arab support for normalising relations with Israel have all but fallen by the wayside and Hamas of course is not the only Iran backed extremist group in the ME nor is its presence confined to Gaza.

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

On that we may need to differ on the issue of who actually started the chain of events and whether Gaza being flattened is solely a response to the October massacre or a wider agenda on a trajectory that would have led to Gaza being flattened eventually anyway - but yes, it is seen by Israel, the UK and the US as the ’justification’ for Israel to attack Gaza in the way that she is, for sure.

 

[tedebear]

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

Actually I'm more of the thought that this started in 1948 when Isreal was created without the agreement of the Arab peoples. Emboldening and arming the Isrealis seems to be seriously backfiring now! To say a monster has been created is an understatment. Having said that both of these populations of people deserve a place to live in peace. It is impossible to see how that can happen with both sides committing atrocities and refusing to recognise the humanity of the other...

 

[ClemFandango]

Had to tune out for a bit as seeing the massacres and war crimes being carried out takes a mental toll after a while (Imagine being subjected to it in person).

The unconditional backing of Israeli actions by the majority of our politicians is shameful. Another poster said they felt hopeless and I sympathise. I still think it's worth protesting - if nothing elses to be in the company of people who share the same humanity. Write to your MP and join and support financially
https://bdsmovement.net/

Even when this beyond horrendous period is "over" (the trauma will last forever for Gazans), the Palestinians left will still be occupied and oppressed. There will a new generation of traumatised children and teenagers who will want to (justifiably) resist their oppressors.

The key but seemingly insurmountable challenge is to get Israeli influence out of UK and US politics and reduce/eliminate financial support. Unconditional political and financial backing of Israel by the US especially prevents any hope of a long lasting peace for both groups.

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

 

[Goldstone1976]

I think it worth also noting that the separate "This is Genocide" thread to which I replied has been merged / shut down.
I think this highlighted and brought to attention a slightly different topic of debate to the thread title here.

Merged? Yes, into this thread. Shut down? No, as it’s been merged into this thread.

It can sometimes be difficult to assess whether a new thread is actually a new thread or whether it’s simply a place where the same debate will be had. For examples of the latter, see the early threads on Brexit-related stuff and Covid-related stuff. If we hadn’t merged all the new threads on Brexit we’d have had over 100 - this makes following a moving news story impossible.

I think the key word in your post is ‘slightly’. I agree; that’s why I merged the thread.

Nonetheless, I’ve edited the thread title to be somewhat more up to date and a little broader.

 

[armchairclubber]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

As sickening and unfortunate her plight may be (I haven't heard the individual case though don't doubt your account), do you think that Israel, US with complicit UK continuing with their Genocide of a nation will help her cause?
Israel has other means of defending itself, even wih help of the West and any opportunity for dialogue.

 

[armchairclubber]

Merged? Yes, into this thread. Shut down? No, as it’s been merged into this thread.

It can sometimes be difficult to assess whether a new thread is actually a new thread or whether it’s simply a place where the same debate will be had. For examples of the latter, see the early threads on Brexit-related stuff and Covid-related stuff. If we hadn’t merged all the new threads on Brexit we’d have had over 100 - this makes following a moving news story impossible.

I think the key word in your post is ‘slightly’. I agree; that’s why I merged the thread.

Nonetheless, I’ve edited the thread title to be somewhat more up to date and a little broader.

Thankyou for taking note and your actions.

 

[Boys 9d]

From CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/middleeast/babies-al-nasr-gaza-hospital-what-we-know-intl/index.html

 

[sydney]

We are closer to the fictional hunger games than some may think.
The government waste our taxes on absolute shite like Rwanda and filling French pockets to do the square root of FA, yet happy to leave the poorest in the country well more destitute than they already are.
If I have to listen to that monotone plumed voiced Sunak for much longer I will crack up.

100% mate ....younger generations have been conditioned by films such as hunger games , divergent , enders games....etc. even as far back as star wars there has been perceived struggle against authority ....now its here , in plain sight , like a really shit film with a shit plot ,but it's real

 

[bWize]

100% mate ....younger generations have been conditioned by films such as hunger games , divergent , enders games....etc. even as far back as star wars there has been perceived struggle against authority ....now its here , in plain sight , like a really shit film with a shit plot ,but it's real

1984

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Actually I'm more of the thought that this started in 1948 when Isreal was created without the agreement of the Arab peoples. Emboldening and arming the Isrealis seems to be seriously backfiring now! To say a monster has been created is an understatment. Having said that both of these populations of people deserve a place to live in peace. It is impossible to see how that can happen with both sides committing atrocities and refusing to recognise the humanity of the other...

Yes, I agree that if Israel didn't exist there would be no conflict, but that's hardly a solution.

If we focus simply on the present situation, it is clear that Hamas started it, hoping for an Arab nation pile in. Perhaps they may describe it as a cry for help. However I wouldn't be inclined to believe them.

I see that America has vetoed a call for ceasefire. The argument is this would simply allow Hamas to regroup and start again (in a war they can never win, without the help of Arab nations and Iran. Which isn't going to happen.) With Bibi running Israel this is a perfect storm. Until people accept that history started today rather than in 1948, or 1967 all that will happen is death.

 

[pocketseagull]

The Labour party today delivers its strongest criticism of Israel over its attacks on Palestinians, describing the death and destruction in Gaza over the past two months as “intolerable” and attacking two far-right Israeli cabinet ministers for “totally unacceptable” support of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

In a sharp change of tone, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, with the full backing of party leader Keir Starmer, attacks the Israeli authorities for “turning a blind eye” to violence by settlers in the West Bank, which has “forcibly displaced” more than 1,000 Palestinians from their homes since the attacks on Israel by Hamas on 7 October.


He criticises far-right ministers for pumping huge sums into the budget for settlements, which threaten any hope of a political solution, while “defunding the Palestinian Authority and promoting dangerous and extreme rhetoric about Palestinians”.

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

www.theguardian.com

 

[knocky1]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

They will kill more than the 17,000 civilians, including 8,000 children they've killed so far, and move permanently into Gaza.
From the river to the sea, Israel will be Israel.

 

[knocky1]

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

www.theguardian.com

Too little too late by Starmer's Blairite war mongerering shadow cabinet.
Peter Kyle get a grip.

 

[wellquickwoody]

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

It will have to sit down and have genuine talks about a two state solution and not stealing land from oppressed Arabs. Once an agreement is reached, if possible, this can be policed by the UN.

 

[Justice]

They will kill more than the 17,000 civilians, including 8,000 children they've killed so far, and move permanently into Gaza.
From the river to the sea, Israel will be Israel.

Have they got their sights set on the 3 billion barrels of oil sitting under Gaza?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Too little too late by Starmer's Blairite war mongerering shadow cabinet.
Peter Kyle get a grip.

You get a grip.

FFS.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Keep speaking up. I suspect your comments are generally well received. The bit I have highlighted is unquestionably correct. The problem is that it is also unquestionably understandable, if it is the case that there is a prominent element in Palestinians, Lebanon, Iran and possibly Syria that see as the ends game, all the Jews in the sea.

What I don't know is how entrenched that Arab position is, and whether there is any scope for negotiation. And then of course the west bank is out of control, with illegal settlement and violation of the rule of law actively encouraged by Bibi.

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

ps, correct me if I am wrong but it seems there are no western governments saying to Bibi 'stop now, or else'. Certainly not our tiny wanka, or sleepy Joe. In which case we can do nothing other than sit ad watch

Isn’t it only us (abstained) and the US (against) who are not for calls for an immediate ceasefire from the UN?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

This whole thread is full of me highlighting the appalling situation in Gaza, the policy of settlement expansion by the Netanyahu Government across the West Bank and the genocidal, extremist right wing policies pervading the Israel Government’s approach to the ‘Palestinian problem’ and the brutal political and social realities of life under illegal occupation for them. The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza we are witnessing is directly caused by the disproportionate response by Israel to the Hamas attacks on top of years of blockades and for no other reason.

It maybe true that speaking out as I have done has probably been a waste of time as a few posters have said - it’s certainly not done me any favours.

But sadly, It is often the case that by the time the majority of opinion sees the truth of human rights abuses and genocide, it is often too late to save the populations concerned. When any nation of people under go destruction of all necessary infrastructure for a society to survive, blanket forced removal of people from their homes and widespread slaughter of innocent civilians - the objectives of genocide have already all but been achieved.

Seeing Genocide - Boston Review

Israel’s weaponization of images since October 7 obfuscates its genocidal campaign against Palestinians.

www.bostonreview.net

It’s NOT a waste of time.

If anybody thinks this is in danger of being anti-Semitic, I am sure plenty of Jews worldwide, including in Israel, would agree with you.

 

[pocketseagull]

Of the five permanent members Russia also abstained, France and China voted for a ceasefire.

Overall 121 voted for, 44 abstained, 14 against

 

[Motogull]

The best commentary on this can be seen in Last Week Tonight.

It is really fair and balanced. There are plenty of Palestinians that oppose Hamas and plenty of Israelis that oppose their government.

More bombs dropped in Gaza than the US managed in a whole year in Afghanistan. Hamas still firing missiles and Israel still bombing. Pack in in all of you.

A very depressing watch.