[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[abc]

It occurs to me that too many posters in this thread have incredibly strong opinions and express total certainty that they are right due to their apparently in depth knowledge and experience of the subject matter. However, this is a Brighton football forum and I doubt many, if any, here are Israeli or Palestinian and genuinely have either the knowledge or experience to be anything like so entrenched in their opinions or judgemental of the opinions of others.

A little more humility and acknowledgement of the fact that thousands of innocents are suffering on both sides of the fence would not go amiss.

Apologies if my post offends but just felt it needed saying even if I am alone in finding some of the posts (on both 'sides') offensive, ignorant and racist (again, on both sides)

 

[Motogull]

This 'conflict' (forgive the possible clumsy word) has troubled and upset me for longer than I can remember.

The recent actions of Hamas are off the scale and sick beyond description. The response was predictable.

The time has come for the rest of the world to impose sanctions on both countries. There just has to be a way out of this.

 

[Zeberdi]

Honestly, some of the language, trolling and vitriol here is really counterproductive and adding to what is already a really distressful time for anyone who has a modicum of humanitarian blood flowing through their veins. Let’s not underestimate how deeply destabilising some NSCers may find all the news and how that might trigger existing anxieties in some of our forum members - this should be a place to share those anxieties as well as field our views, albeit, ones with apparently very diverse perspectives!

I’m pretty grounded but the images and stories coming out of Gaza and interviews with Israeli citizens who have lost or missing family members for me is truly heartbreaking and must be for most of us so some folk might just want to dial it back a bit - Personally, I think it’s impossible for any of us to know the full picture of what is happening out there other than it must be hell for the civilians caught in the middle of it all - none of us are privy to the whole truth or fully aware of the true complexities of Middle Eastern geo-politics but at least some education on the basics can carry us some of the way - As far as the current Crisis and specific details of atrocities/death toll/suffering, it may be a platitude but worth remembering that ‘the first casualty of war is truth’ when reading or listening to any news reports regardless of their editorial persuasion/nationality/ownership

- that goes for X too

X promises 'highest level' response on posts about Israel-Hamas war. Misinformation still flourishes

The social media platform X, formerly known as Twitter, says it is trying to take action on a flood of posts sharing graphic media, violent speech and hateful conduct about the latest war between Israel and Hamas.

apnews.com

meanwhile - looking more like Alepo by the day

Unprecedented Israeli bombardment lays waste to upscale Rimal, the beating heart of Gaza City

Following a night of intense bombardment, residents were struggling Tuesday to grasp the sheer scale of damage inflicted on the upscale Rimal neighborhood in central Gaza City.

apnews.com

Under heavy bombing, Palestinians in Gaza move from place to place, only to discover nowhere is safe

Tens of thousands of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are packed into United Nations shelters as Israeli warplanes pound the tiny territory of 2.3 million people after their Hamas militant rulers launched an unprecedented weekend attack on Israel.

apnews.com

And what’s the exit strategy?

Dispatch from Jerusalem: How does this end?

Israel must not make the same mistakes that the United States made after 9/11. Here are some critical questions to ask now.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[Bakero]

Shocking state of affairs

Just awful. Hard to understand how the UK government not only backs destruction on this scale but wants to restrict people's right to criticise it.

 

[AstroSloth]

You are arguing semantics.

If you're against someone arguing semantics does that make you anti-semantic?

If so I think I've finally figured out what this post was saying.

So you’ve not seen the anti semantic chants, videos, graffiti, and damage in our capital? But then left wing liberal anti semites tend to turn a blind eye to that sort of thing eh Jeremy?

 

[Wardy's twin]

A good succinct article written by someone who knows more about the subject than I will and I have read quite a bit about the middle east. He does not though propose a solution but it implies it can only come with ceding land. However, as I have said Israel is unlikely to cede the Golan Height and the power of a very small,Zionist minority means that the West Bank is not likely to go anywhere. What he does not cover is that Hamas and Hezbollah are the issue now , not the Palestinians and that whilst a lot of the Arab countries will tolerate Israel , Iran has pledged to destroy it and would do that even if all the land captured in 1967 were given back

This is a good article by Jeremy Bowen about the Six Day war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39960461[/URL

http://

 

[Zeberdi]

It occurs to me that too many posters in this thread have incredibly strong opinions and express total certainty that they are right due to their apparently in depth knowledge and experience of the subject matter. However, this is a Brighton football forum and I doubt many, if any, here are Israeli or Palestinian and genuinely have either the knowledge or experience to be anything like so entrenched in their opinions or judgemental of the opinions of others.

Firstly, it’s an incredibly emotive thread topic and an incredibly important issue for many folk - it’s inevitable opinions will be expressed on a full spectrum of intensity depending on individual feelings at what we are witnessing - personally I would rather people expressed strong opinions than have none at all or have no interest - Some knowledge of the subject matter is a good start and I think it’s excellent that people are getting themselves up to speed with reading/watching the news and showing an interest - and direct experience of any of the issues does give a certain legitimacy to what people say - that’s the beauty and privilege of life experience

A little more humility and acknowledgement of the fact that thousands of innocents are suffering on both sides of the fence would not go amiss.

Absolutely no one has refused to acknowledge that on this thread from what I’ve read - apart from maybe a couple that have already been banned (or are about to be perhaps)

Apologies if my post offends but just felt it needed saying even if I am alone in finding some of the posts (on both 'sides') offensive, ignorant and racist (again, on both sides)

Personally, I cant see anything offensive in your post but I’m slightly bemused as to why you think you might be ‘alone’ in calling out racism or ignorance or offensive behaviour - and without being too sucky , I think @Guinness Boy and @Bozza have been doing a sterling job of refereeing this thread along with some very fair minded individual posters.

 

[AK74]

...it would be interesting to know how many other NSCers have been out there?

I was in Tel Aviv in 2015 for work. A short trip, memorable for:

- encountering nice people
- walking around the streets without an overt police or military presence
- a friendly but very sharp member of the border force scrutinising my passport and asking all sorts of probing questions about my travel history

I've also been to Beirut, and met similarly nice people.

The world's a better place when we're nice to each other.

 

[nicko31]

Just awful. Hard to understand how the UK government not only backs destruction on this scale but wants to restrict people's right to criticise it.

And we all know this is just the start for Gaza, bombed from the air nightly and borders sealed from land and sea plus essentially services cut.

A humanitarian disaster is unfolding again

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just awful. Hard to understand how the UK government not only backs destruction on this scale but wants to restrict people's right to criticise it.

The UK government? Sue Ellen Thick-as-shite?

All they are doing is trying to position themselves to the right of labour (who obviously support the terrorists. Obviously).

Nuance, judgement, leadership. Three words that have absolutely no meaning for, or traction with the current carpet-bagging government.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This 'conflict' (forgive the possible clumsy word) has troubled and upset me for longer than I can remember.

The recent actions of Hamas are off the scale and sick beyond description. The response was predictable.

The time has come for the rest of the world to impose sanctions on both countries. There just has to be a way out of this.

Ban sales of weaponry? Unfortunately many weapons are already stockpiled.
i wonder how arms dealers sleep at night.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I was in Tel Aviv in 2015 for work. A short trip, memorable for:

- encountering nice people
- walking around the streets without an overt police or military presence
- a friendly but very sharp member of the border force scrutinising my passport and asking all sorts of probing questions about my travel history

I've also been to Beirut, and met similarly nice people.

The world's a better place when we're nice to each other.

Aside from my Israel connections I also have a long-term work colleague who is a professor in Lebanon. Absolutely top notch bloke.

May the good people prevail.

 

[Poojah]

NSC is always an intriguing place to follow fast-moving and often upsetting stories, such as this. A real melting pot of content; some of it greatly informative and educational, much of it heart-wrenching, and then some ignorant and vitriolic, too.

I had a vague knowledge of the meandering background of the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, and I’ve endeavoured to educate myself further in recent days following these harrowing events. I also spent some time in Tel-Aviv on business, three or four visits, a few years back.

Still I find it hard to truly understand the historic ins and outs of the rights and wrongs of the past century or so. What we seem to have in the present moment though are two groups hellbent on a path to evil and atrocity. There is surely no good to be found anywhere in this situation?

Is it ok to engage in the deliberate slaughter of families and children in retaliation? Surely it’s never, ever ok? People dying in their thousands on both sides, almost all complete innocents.

I often used to wonder how the human race could be capable of the kinds of large scale atrocities such as the holocaust, or the genocide in Bosnia in the 90s. Surely these times, these people were not so different from you and I?

But times like these remind me that it is part of human nature to behave like this. To feel nothing but hatred and contempt for those who we perceive as threats, or as lesser, undeserving creatures. Heathens worshiping the wrong God. Born on the wrong parcel of land.

We see these patters throughout history, both distant and recent. And as easy as it is to look to the past, it is to look to the future. Something like this is ultimately how this ends for our world. One day, probably not as far away as we all might hope, there will be an impasse on an even greater scale, so complex and so hatefully impassioned that it cannot be solved. Except through mutual and widespread obliteration. Nostradamus you need not be; this a mere microcosm of such an event.

Right now, it’s hard to feel anything but sadness for all those people dying and or losing their love ones or, if not, everything but their life itself. Many of them far too young to even begin to comprehend what this is all about. Their nationality, creed or religion is irrelevant. They’re just innocent people, like me, like my children, going about their lives. Or at least they were.

What a stupefyingly dreadful, tragic mess. Will we ever learn? Regrettably, I don’t think we will.

 

[aolstudios]

A good read. If you're of a mind to... https://everydayhate.substack.com/p/a-letter-to-those-who-celebrate-murder?subscribe_prompt=free

 

[Krafty]

Aside from my Israel connections I also have a long-term work colleague who is a professor in Lebanon. Absolutely top notch bloke.

May the good people prevail.

Intrigued to know what you mean by that last sentence... who are the "good people"?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Having been to Israel around 10 years ago with Mrs Jakarta for a religious tour it would be interesting to know how many other NSCers have been out there?

All I can say is then when we were out there they clearly thought they were at war with their 'neighbours' and acted accordingly.

For example F16's overhead every 30 minutes, teenage girls in army gear with sub machine guns etc.

Local arabs lobbing rocks at us when we going down to the Wailing Wall didn't make me more sympathetic to their cause I have to say.

As noted, I loved it, and my only problem was getting charged £200 for a 1 mile taxi ride by an arab taxi driver (it was the Sabbath). He settled for £20, still ten times what was appropriate.

I was taken to the Golan Heights by my hosts. At the bottom of the cliff by the sea, Israeli settlements. On top, Syrian guns, that once took pot shots on the villagers for shits and giggles, till Israel took action and shoved the border back a few miles. That was the 7 day's war so I recall. Job done. Why f*** about with arseholes?

f*** sake. Israel is a European style democracy, that has sadly gone the same way as many in Europe, and elected a nob right wing government.
But unlike Syria, Egypt (well, they tried), Lebanon (ditto) and Gaza (once was enough for the first victors - Hamas) Israel can boot out their government via an election.

Fancy that.

 

[Justice]

Just awful. Hard to understand how the UK government not only backs destruction on this scale but wants to restrict people's right to criticise it.

Did you see Sunak wearing a Kippah yesterday? Unbelievable

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Intrigued to know what you mean by that last sentence... who are the "good people"?

The good people among the Israelis and Palestinians and Lebanese and Syrians. They have a greater or lesser level of access to influence in their own countries.

My perception is that there are good people everywhere, crushed in some countries, and seduced into barbarity in others. It takes a strong will, and luck, to survive as a good person in some places.

I salute the good people everywhere. All power to them. In the long run they will win.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ban sales of weaponry? Unfortunately many weapons are already stockpiled.
i wonder how arms dealers sleep at night.

And how do we ban Russia from selling weapons? Apparently the Gaza gang are armed to the teeth with Russian hardware.

Perhaps we could boycott the purchase of Russian oil.

Oh, hang on..........

 

[Questions]

I have big problems with huge swathes of Zionism.