[News] Greta Thunberg and the boat

[Thunder Bolt]

I wasn't saying they can't, but the ones who have come from France and not in need of sanctuary, they already have that.




Are you aware that that is complete nonsense? There are about 50 countries in Europe, and the UK must be about 5th (not checked) for the number of asylum seekers. How is 5th / 50 among the lowest?

Haven’t checked? Ok.

 

[BadFish]

Still? I think that was my first comment on this thread, and it's not something I discuss here much.

There are plenty of people in the world who are facing persecution and are fearful for their lives because of the backwards country they're stuck in. I don't know why you want to pretend France is one of those countries. Asylum seekers who are in France have the right to leave France and try and claim asylum elsewhere, but we don't need to pretend that they're still fearing for their lives.




No shit shirlock.



I didn't say otherwise, and you'll find that the UK takes a huge amount of asylum seekers. Thunder Bolt tried to pass us off as a country taking among the fewest number of asylum seekers in Europe, but as I pointed out, we're among the highest, despite the fact that it's not easy to get here, and despite the fact we're a relatively small country.

Surely the next question you ask in this line of thinking is: Why DO they leave France and cross a cold dangerous sea to claim asylum in the UK?

FWIW no one pretends they are fearing for their lives in France
.
A quick google shows that there are logical reasons for this .

Reasons people are crossing the Channel | British Red Cross

Learn more about why people risk their lives crossing the English Channel in the hopes of finding safety in the UK.

www.redcross.org.uk

 

[BadFish]

I am setting up a community garden program at my school for l our refugee families at the moment. A place where they can meet other people and feel some sense of community. Grow plants for their home countries and share skills and knowledge with me and each other.

Hopefully I will get to know some more stories and understand a bit more about refugees and what people go through in their lives.

I have met a fair few over the years and usually the stories are both inspirational and heartbreaking.

 

[Lever]

Couldn't agree more.

I am sure you could. You need to try harder.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I didn't say otherwise, and you'll find that the UK takes a huge amount of asylum seekers. Thunder Bolt tried to pass us off as a country taking among the fewest number of asylum seekers in Europe, but as I pointed out, we're among the highest, despite the fact that it's not easy to get here, and despite the fact we're a relatively small country.

I agree that it helps to be accurate and nuanced about this (most things), but I wouldn't say we're a relatively small country in European terms. If we ignore Russia and Greenland we're the 10th largest country in Europe. Outside of the south east of England our population density isn't particularly high either.

 

[Triggaaar]

Haven’t checked? Ok.

After Harry posted his graph I googled it for him, and it said we were 4th, not 5th. Happy?

 

[Triggaaar]

I agree that it helps to be accurate and nuanced about this (most things), but I wouldn't say we're a relatively small country in European terms. If we ignore Russia and Greenland we're the 10th largest country in Europe.

Yes, fair point. If someone who isn't trying to create a narrative wants to create a list of European countries that takes all the nuances into account, such as size, population, population density etc, that could help. I see that Greece takes a lot of asylum seekers (and Greece is smaller than the UK), but that's because of an issue with EU law (not because they want to) and something they're looking to change.

Outside of the south east of England our population density isn't particularly high either.

We have large areas of the country that aren't very populated at all, but asylum seekers don't flock to those areas, they (understandably) go to dense cities where there's work.

 

[jcdenton08]

Yes, fair point. If someone who isn't trying to create a narrative wants to create a list of European countries that takes all the nuances into account, such as size, population, population density etc, that could help. I see that Greece takes a lot of asylum seekers (and Greece is smaller than the UK), but that's because of an issue with EU law (not because they want to) and something they're looking to change.



We have large areas of the country that aren't very populated at all, but asylum seekers don't flock to those areas, they (understandably) go to dense cities where there's work.

I had a go at providing direct comparisons using Home Office data on the prior page in my last post. The numbers show we are taking more than our fair share when population density, GDP and other factors are concerned.

But as I say, economic migration is the bulk of it - over 2.27m in three years net migration which is the highest as a percentage increase of population in Europe. Which again when factoring in land mass, GDP and in comparison to countries which take very few (Ireland, Sweden, Denmark) is one of the highest

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

We have large areas of the country that aren't very populated at all, but asylum seekers don't flock to those areas, they (understandably) go to dense cities where there's work.

True enough, but the same could be said of most countries - I doubt all the asylum seekers in Greece go and live up in the mountains by the Macedon border for example.

And most of the cities in Britain don't have anything like the population pressures that London or Brighton or the surrounding areas do, although on the other hand they've had much less spending on infrastructure etc. than London over the years.

 

[BadFish]

I had a go at providing direct comparisons using Home Office data on the prior page in my last post. The numbers show we are taking more than our fair share when population density, GDP and other factors are concerned.

But as I say, economic migration is the bulk of it - over 2.27m in three years net migration which is the highest as a percentage increase of population in Europe. Which again when factoring in land mass, GDP and in comparison to countries which take very few (Ireland, Sweden, Denmark) is one of the highest

Genuine question: what is the definition of an economic migrant? Are they sub divided in statistics?

 

[jcdenton08]

Genuine question: what is the definition of an economic migrant? Are they sub divided in statistics?

Yes, they are sub-divided in the statistics.

These are the official statistics: https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...-statistics#why-do-people-come-to-the-uk-work

You’ll see under Part 2 people who arrive legally to work. Under parts 5 and 7 you’ll see rufugees and asylum seeker numbers respectively.

Anyone in Part 2 is considered an economic migrant, in the same way if a British national went to live and work in another country for non family, refugee or asylum reasons, this would be considered an economic reason for statistical grouping.

I suggest reading the whole thing for a fuller understanding of how the statistics break down. Then compare and contrast to our neighbours, taking into additional consideration habitable land mass, gross domestic product, quality of life indicators and population.

Also, I’m sure you know this, but just in case, net figures mean the total amount after all subtractions. So if 100 come in and 10 go out, that’s a net incoming of 90.

 

[BadFish]

View attachment 204073

Yes, they are sub-divided in the statistics.

These are the official statistics: https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...-statistics#why-do-people-come-to-the-uk-work

You’ll see under Part 2 people who arrive legally to work. Under parts 5 and 7 you’ll see rufugees and asylum seeker numbers respectively.

Anyone in Part 2 is considered an economic migrant, in the same way if a British national went to live and work in another country for non family, refugee or asylum reasons, this would be considered an economic reason for statistical grouping.

I suggest reading the whole thing for a fuller understanding of how the statistics break down. Then compare and contrast to our neighbours, taking into additional consideration habitable land mass, gross domestic product, quality of life indicators and population.

Also, I’m sure you know this, but just in case, net figures mean the total amount after all subtractions. So if 100 come in and 10 go out, that’s a net incoming of 90.

Just because someone arrives on a work visa it doesn't necessarily follow that they are aiming to improve their standard of living.

For instance if someone moved from say Perth or Adelaide to London to do a similar job with similar equivalent pay their standard of living would probably fall.

Equally someone could move to the UK for a variety of reasons but find the easiest way to do that is on a work visa because they have an in-demand job or have contacts to be sponsored.

Apologies I am probably slitting hairs, but the whole 'economic migrant' thing has connotations I don't care for.

 

[jcdenton08]

Just because someone arrives on a work visa it doesn't necessarily follow that they are aiming to improve their standard of living.

For instance if someone moved from say Perth or Adelaide to London to do a similar job with similar equivalent pay their standard of living would probably fall.

That’s not how it works for statistical reasons, as I’ve not only explained but evidenced to you. Each numbered part in the official Home Office statistics I just sent you refers to a specific reason for immigration. Family, asylum, work. All broken down separately.

Don’t worry, you’re not “losing a point” or anything. I’m just giving you facts.

 

[Chicken Run]

Some good news, from the 4th-10th June ZERO unauthorised immigrants arrived by boat, saw a piece last night on TV of the Gendarmes stopping taxi boats on rivers and generally disrupting gangs of young men on boats

 

[BadFish]

That’s not how it works for statistical reasons, as I’ve not only explained but evidenced to you. Each numbered part in the official Home Office statistics I just sent you refers to a specific reason for immigration. Family, asylum, work. All broken down separately.

Don’t worry, you’re not “losing a point” or anything. I’m just giving you facts.

No need to get arsey,

I appreciate the break down and understand the categories you are referring to.

I am merely discussing the point that a migrant on a work visa is not necessarily an 'economic migrant'

 

[jcdenton08]

No need to get arsey,

I appreciate the break down and understand the categories you are referring to.

I am merely discussing the point that a migrant on a work visa is not necessarily an 'economic migrant'

Okay.

But they are in a reality, actual sense.

 

[BadFish]

Some good news, from the 4th-10th June ZERO unauthorised immigrants arrived by boat, saw a piece last night on TV of the Gendarmes stopping taxi boats on rivers and generally disrupting gangs of young men on boats

What a shame, let's hope people in need have found somewhere safe to live their lives and reunited their families

 

[BadFish]

Okay.

But they are in a reality, actual sense.

Great discussion, thanks.

You can have the point

 

[jcdenton08]

Great discussion, thanks.

You can have the point

You asked for a definition! I gave you one, and gave official government statistics to show you. But you just don’t like the term “economic migrant” so it’s been a bit of a waste of time me doing that for you. Don’t ask if you don’t want to know!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes, fair point. If someone who isn't trying to create a narrative wants to create a list of European countries that takes all the nuances into account, such as size, population, population density etc, that could help. I see that Greece takes a lot of asylum seekers (and Greece is smaller than the UK), but that's because of an issue with EU law (not because they want to) and something they're looking to change.



We have large areas of the country that aren't very populated at all, but asylum seekers don't flock to those areas, they (understandably) go to dense cities where there's work.

Asylum seekers go where they are placed. Once their asylum is granted, they have the same mobility as anyone else.