[News] Greta Thunberg and the boat

[BadFish]

You asked for a definition! I gave you one, and gave official government statistics to show you. But you just don’t like the term “economic migrant” so it’s been a bit of a waste of time me doing that for you. Don’t ask if you don’t want to know!

You are right I don't like the term 'economic migrant' as I mentioned.

You did give me a definition of economic migrant and I appreciate it. And you gave me the government breakdown of how they show different types of visas. I appreciated that too.

But you have conflated the phrase 'economic migrant' with 'migrant on a work visa'. I was just pointing that out. I even gave you a couple of examples but you may not have seen them.

For some reason you don't want to discuss that, no worries. I won't waste your time any further.

 

[beorhthelm]

Just because someone arrives on a work visa it doesn't necessarily follow that they are aiming to improve their standard of living.

For instance if someone moved from say Perth or Adelaide to London to do a similar job with similar equivalent pay their standard of living would probably fall.

Equally someone could move to the UK for a variety of reasons but find the easiest way to do that is on a work visa because they have an in-demand job or have contacts to be sponsored.

Apologies I am probably slitting hairs, but the whole 'economic migrant' thing has connotations I don't care for.

people certainly dont go to the trouble of aquiring visas, logisitics of moving to another country and settling in with the aim of lower living standard.
having an aim doesn't mean they will acheive it immediately or succeed in their goal.

 

[Randy McNob]

The issue on hand for many people is very high net migration: 2.27 million between 2022 and 2024, with a peak in 2023 of 906,000 net migration.

In just three years, the migrant population grew 3.4% of the national population.

For comparison, France had net migration of 569,000 over the same period, which was an increase of 0.86% of the national population.

Hmmmm, now I wonder why that might be? Some political change must have happened from around 2019.

answers on a postcard to..."we knew exactly what we voted for, PO Box 18, Brexit St, Idiotville"

 

[jcdenton08]

Hmmmm, now I wonder why that might be? Some political change must have happened from around 2019.

answers on a postcard to..."we knew exactly what we voted for, PO Box 18, Brexit St, Idiotville"

Yep, absolutely. From the OBR:

 

[BadFish]

people certainly dont go to the trouble of aquiring visas, logisitics of moving to another country and settling in with the aim of lower living standard.
having an aim doesn't mean they will acheive it immediately or succeed in their goal.

Of course they don't. But hey do do it for lots of other reasons besides economics. E.g for love, to experience a different part of the world, to further their career, to be close to a relative, better weather (to be fair no-one is moving to the UK fair that)

I am an immigrant myself, I would say that an improved standard of living was merely an incidental bonus.

 

[jcdenton08]

Of course they do. They could do it for love, to experience a different part of the world, to further their career, to be close to a relative, better weather (to be fair no-one is moving to the UK fair that)

I am an immigrant myself, I would say that an improved standard of living was merely an incidental bonus.

Do you not think your personal situation is somewhat different to someone traveling into the UK from, say, Romania? Are you suggesting they want to come and live here to be closer to our famous Salisbury spire? Come on, you’re being disingenuous.

 

[BadFish]

Do you not think your personal situation is somewhat different to someone traveling into the UK from, say, Romania? Are you suggesting they want to come and live here to be closer to our famous Salisbury spire? Come on, you’re being disingenuous.

the stats around the work visa simply doesn't provide an adequate descriptions of people's motives in migrating. It tells you what type of visa they are applying on but not the motivation behind either Badfish's or Boris from Romania's migration.

I think it is disingenuous to conflate the terms economic migrant and a migrant on a work visa. There are simply too many variables.

Are you really comfortable with the assumption that everyone on a work visa to the UK is an 'economic migrant'?

 

[jcdenton08]

the stats around the work visa simply doesn't provide an adequate descriptions of people's motives in migrating. It tells you what type of visa they are applying on but not the motivation behind either Badfish's or Boris from Romania's migration.

I think it is disingenuous to conflate the terms economic migrant and a migrant on a work visa. There are simply too many variables.

Then I think you’ll never have an answer you’re happy with, all we have are the visa type granted and the asylum/humanitarian figures.

 

[Randy McNob]

There should be a rule from now on: If anyone asks why don't they claim asylumn in France or there isn't a war in France, and only an idiot would say such a thing, then they must also understand and explain why should one country shoulder more of the burden of a global refugee crisis when all countries have signed up tp exactly the same agreement on offerring sanctuary to asylum seekers. Perhaps they could also explain why they had no issue with displaced Ukranian refugees being offered sanctuary in the UK and didn't argue it should be Poland's or Czech Republic's problem? Perhaps it's because they are white European?

 

[BadFish]

Then I think you’ll never have an answer you’re happy with, all we have are the visa type granted and the asylum/humanitarian figures.

I am very happy with the visa types.

The connotations around 'economic migrant' are what I don't like because it is a phrase typically used to suggest that asylum seekers are no genuine.

That's why I wondered why you were using it to describe more traditional migrants.

 

[jcdenton08]

Again, the asylum numbers alone are a fraction of the numbers of migrants moving to the UK for work or family reasons.

 

[beorhthelm]

Of course they don't. But hey do do it for lots of other reasons besides economics. E.g for love, to experience a different part of the world, to further their career, to be close to a relative, better weather (to be fair no-one is moving to the UK fair that)

I am an immigrant myself, I would say that an improved standard of living was merely an incidental bonus.

fair point, i realise i'm throwing in quailty of life with standard of living.

 

[jcdenton08]

That's why I wondered why you were using it to describe more traditional migrants.

Asylum seekers and migrants coming for work and family reasons Are. Not. The Same. Thing. They are counted differently, are regulated and managed under different laws. They aren’t the same thing. Asylum seekers aren’t willing migrants in law. They are displaced persons. I really don’t know how else to explain this. Asylum
seekers and certain humanitarian migrants are protected by the 1951 UN Refugee Convention which is international
Law, as well as our own domestic laws.

Economic migrants and asylum seekers are different things. They aren’t the same thing because they’re different

 

[nicko31]

Yep, absolutely. From the OBR:

View attachment 204074

Swashbuckling post Brexit Britain global Britain.

Economy powering ahead and demand shortages eliminated, the whining remoaners need to finally wind their necks in

 

[beorhthelm]

I agree that it helps to be accurate and nuanced about this (most things), but I wouldn't say we're a relatively small country in European terms. If we ignore Russia and Greenland we're the 10th largest country in Europe. Outside of the south east of England our population density isn't particularly high either.

something for you in the maps thread. its pretty dense until you get mid Wales or Scottish Highlands.

[Travel] - Interesting maps

 

[BadFish]

Asylum seekers and migrants coming for work and family reasons Are. Not. The Same. Thing. They are counted differently, are regulated and managed under different laws. They aren’t the same thing. Asylum seekers aren’t willing migrants in law. They are displaced persons. I really don’t know how else to explain this. Asylum
seekers and certain humanitarian migrants are protected by the 1951 UN Refugee Convention which is international
Law, as well as our own domestic laws.

Economic migrants and asylum seekers are different things. They aren’t the same thing because they’re different

Take a deep breath man, it's okay.

You don't need to explain it at all. I know this and have a long tradition on this board with ensuring the distinction between the two it recognised.

What is confusing me though is what I said that made you think I didn't understand this.

Shall we leave it there as you seem to be a little frustrated?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

something for you in the maps thread. its pretty dense until you get mid Wales or Scottish Highlands.

[Travel] - Interesting maps

Since I'm sat on a train for the next four to five hours or so, I may as reply here as well just to fill the time.

That map shows County Durham as the 2nd deepest shade, implying it's really densely populated.

These are some photos of typical County Durham scenery.

Now, I'm clearly not suggesting paving over most of Teesdale and Weardale, but I do think that map is wildly (and probably willfully) misleading.

 

[Randy McNob]

Since I'm sat on a train for the next four to five hours or so, I may as reply here as well just to fill the time.

That map shows County Durham as the 2nd deepest shade, implying it's really densely populated.

These are some photos of typical County Durham scenery.

View attachment 204095
View attachment 204094
View attachment 204102
View attachment 204096
View attachment 204100

Now, I'm clearly not suggesting paving over most of Teesdale and Weardale, but I do think that map is wildly (and probably willfully) misleading.

England's full !! Pull up the drawbridge !!

 

[KZNSeagull]

Since I'm sat on a train for the next four to five hours or so, I may as reply here as well just to fill the time.

That map shows County Durham as the 2nd deepest shade, implying it's really densely populated.

These are some photos of typical County Durham scenery.

View attachment 204095
View attachment 204094
View attachment 204102
View attachment 204096
View attachment 204100

Now, I'm clearly not suggesting paving over most of Teesdale and Weardale, but I do think that map is wildly (and probably willfully) misleading.

It's a hole isn't it? Don't know why anyone would want to live there tbh.

 

[Chicken Run]

Hmmmm, now I wonder why that might be? Some political change must have happened from around 2019.

answers on a postcard to..."we knew exactly what we voted for, PO Box 18, Brexit St, Idiotville"

Not to mention the West tinkering in the Middle East with their obsession of regime change and sending for want of a better word Crusaders into these countries and disrupting leadership, i genuinely cannot think of one country that is better off for our little visits save for Kuwait but we couldn’t wait to push on into Iraq, i wonder if there would be less migration from the middle east if we had left well alone?