France to ban the Burqa?

[The Spanish]

But as I say, these Indian cricket fans also support England in every other major sport, so you're clearly wrong.

So they dont support India in football or rugby then? That does drive a coach and horses through the silly racist idiots on this boards arguments.

 

[User removed 4]

Fair point, I hadn't thought of that.

simster, since your now over at canary wharf , when are we having a beer ?we could even get man of harveys out for a drink , i had one with him a couple of weeks ago , just ask him

 

[Pavilionaire]

I've noticed that West Indian support in this country is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. In those days The Oval was like a home match for the Windies. Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the Windies have been shite for a decade?

 

[e77]

So they dont support India in football or rugby then? That does drive a coach and horses through the silly racist idiots on this boards arguments.

So despite living in London you still support Brighton?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The problem is that it is one (trivial) example of divisions in our society. As I've said in previous posts, it may be something that dilutes with time, over generations we become more of a joined culture. But at the moment at times it is very much 'us' and 'them' (from both sides). And it is precisely the 'us' and 'them' attitude which causes and/or augments problems in areas such as Bradford and Burnley.

The example I gave is NOT an "example of divisions in our society" - it's a symptom of the diversity of our society and the capacity of people to embrace a variety of cultural strands without falling out with each other.

The Norman Tebbit test - "which cricket team do you cheer for?" - is fundamentally flawed. It diminishes all of us, because it equates "national identity" with "conformity to the rules". Once you start doing that, it's but a short step to intolerance and bigotry.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

... and if Tebbit knew ANYTHING about cricket, he'd know that "cheering your team" is no way to behave at a cricket match.

 

[Dandyman]

... and if Tebbit knew ANYTHING about cricket, he'd know that "cheering your team" is no way to behave at a cricket match.

What do you expect from a bloody Belgian?

 

[User removed 4]

So despite living in London you still support Brighton?

sure he does, same as when i lived in haywards heath i still supported chelsea because i came from london, but my kids had albion kits etc, no one expects people born and brought up in pakistan to suddenly start supporting england just because they live here, but i expect their kids who are born here to ,how else are we supposed to form some common sense of identity if someone born and brought up here identifies themselves more with a country thousands of miles away, its why i deplore the term british indian etc, if you are born and brought up here you should class yourself as english, nothing more nothing less.

 

[sten_super]

The example I gave is NOT an "example of divisions in our society" - it's a symptom of the diversity of our society and the capacity of people to embrace a variety of cultural strands without falling out with each other.

The Norman Tebbit test - "which cricket team do you cheer for?" - is fundamentally flawed. It diminishes all of us, because it equates "national identity" with "conformity to the rules". Once you start doing that, it's but a short step to intolerance and bigotry.

I was actually referring to my example. I'd hope you'd accept that there's a very fine line between diversity and division; my concern is that we are on the wrong side of that line, that is all. I'm all for having a diverse culture, but it has to be one diverse culture, rather than several completely seperate and unrelated ones.

I've absolutely no idea what your second paragraph means. Are you trying to say that these people that were supporting (say) India in the India v England game are in fact English or not?

 

[Scampi]

sure he does, same as when i lived in haywards heath i still supported chelsea because i came from london, but my kids had albion kits etc, no one expects people born and brought up in pakistan to suddenly start supporting england just because they live here, but i expect their kids who are born here to ,how else are we supposed to form some common sense of identity if someone born and brought up here identifies themselves more with a country thousands of miles away, its why i deplore the term british indian etc, if you are born and brought up here you should class yourself as english, nothing more nothing less.

How do the yanks make it work? They have Italian -Americans and Irish - Americans etc etc for every group of immigrants and they manage to create a strong sense of patriotism for the usa and keep pride in their roots

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

How do the yanks make it work? They have Italian -Americans and Irish - Americans etc etc for every group of immigrants and they manage to create a strong sense of patriotism for the usa and keep pride in their roots

Because in the States kids swear allegiance to the stars and stripes every morning, the flag is displayed EVERYWHERE and the culture is to remind Americans of their debt to the nation as well as the benefits that citizenship offers?

Here we encourage seperate cultural identity like we are a collection of parts rather than a sum of them and feel shame when we show the nations flag except during football tournaments, we live alongside each other rather than with each other and we allow religious influence to force changes in our education and legal systems under the guise of human rights.This creates an air of suspicion and persecution complex which has blighted parts of the country and forced one Million English people to vote for the bloody BNP FFS.

That about sums it up.

 

[User removed 4]

Because in the States kids swear allegiance to the stars and stripes every morning, the flag is displayed EVERYWHERE and the culture is to remind Americans of their debt to the nation as well as the benefits that citizenship offers?

Here we encourage seperate cultural identity like we are a collection of parts rather than a sum of them and feel shame when we show the nations flag except during football tournaments, we live alongside each other rather than with each other and we allow religious influence to force changes in our education and legal systems under the guise of human rights.This creates an air of suspicion and persecution complex which has blighted parts of the country and forced one Million English people to vote for the bloody BNP FFS.

That about sums it up.

is there any need to be so waspish ?

 

[cunning fergus]

The example I gave is NOT an "example of divisions in our society" - it's a symptom of the diversity of our society and the capacity of people to embrace a variety of cultural strands without falling out with each other.

The Norman Tebbit test - "which cricket team do you cheer for?" - is fundamentally flawed. It diminishes all of us, because it equates "national identity" with "conformity to the rules". Once you start doing that, it's but a short step to intolerance and bigotry.

Yes, I completely agree with the first point.

Having witnessed the England cricket team being booed and roundly jeered by the 'Indian' fans at Lords remember that intolerance and bigotry is a two way street.

As for Tebbit's principle I think he was fundamentally right (and I am no Tory), if you want British citizenship then you should be loyal to it...........if you don't understand that dynamic why would you want to be a British citizen?

Personally I am more than happy to fall out with these ersatz British citizens who want to see the country they were born/educated/earn their livelihood loose for a country on the other side of the world. Their desire to pick and choose their national identity as it suits them is a slap in the face for their fellow citizens.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Having witnessed the England cricket team being booed and roundly jeered by the 'Indian' fans at Lords remember that intolerance and bigotry is a two way street.

From the clips I saw it looked like everyone was having a great time. What was the problem ?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

is there any need to be so waspish ?

Touché mon brave.

 

[Acker79]

sure he does, same as when i lived in haywards heath i still supported chelsea because i came from london, but my kids had albion kits etc, no one expects people born and brought up in pakistan to suddenly start supporting england just because they live here, but i expect their kids who are born here to ,how else are we supposed to form some common sense of identity if someone born and brought up here identifies themselves more with a country thousands of miles away, its why i deplore the term british indian etc, if you are born and brought up here you should class yourself as english, nothing more nothing less.

Continuing the local team analogy, what about all my brighton-born friends who are fans of liverpool or man utd etc? Do I not share a Brighton identity with them simply because they choose to give another city's football team their support?

 

[User removed 4]

Continuing the local team analogy, what about all my brighton-born friends who are fans of liverpool or man utd etc? Do I not share a Brighton identity with them simply because they choose to give another city's football team their support?

and you really place this on a par with the nationality question ??

 

[Acker79]

Because in the States kids swear allegiance to the stars and stripes every morning, the flag is displayed EVERYWHERE and the culture is to remind Americans of their debt to the nation as well as the benefits that citizenship offers?

Here we encourage seperate cultural identity like we are a collection of parts rather than a sum of them and feel shame when we show the nations flag except during football tournaments, we live alongside each other rather than with each other and we allow religious influence to force changes in our education and legal systems under the guise of human rights.This creates an air of suspicion and persecution complex which has blighted parts of the country and forced one Million English people to vote for the bloody BNP FFS.

That about sums it up.

Funny you should mention America then criticise Britain for religious interference in schools. Many of american's religious groups have fought evolution, have fought any sex education other than abstinence, have fought to have intelligent design put in the science class room etc.

 

[sten_super]

Continuing the local team analogy, what about all my brighton-born friends who are fans of liverpool or man utd etc? Do I not share a Brighton identity with them simply because they choose to give another city's football team their support?

To be fair to bushy, Spanish et al., I can see why they get so frustrated by some of the conversations on this board. Come up with all the logical but competely facetious arguments you want, I just think it's rather bizarre to stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything's completely hunky dory and there's nothing wrong with the world.

 

[Acker79]

and you really place this on a par with the nationality question ??

To be fair to bushy, Spanish et al., I can see why they get so frustrated by some of the conversations on this board. Come up with all the logical but competely facetious arguments you want, I just think it's rather bizarre to stick your head in the sand and pretend that everything's completely hunky dory and there's nothing wrong with the world.

You didn't have a problem with the analogy when it was first brought up. Either the analogy is facetious/inappropriate and you should say so when it was first brought up, or you follow it through.


Of course it's a silly to take it on this level, but I think it's ridiculous to judge how much someone loves their country/home town based on their support in sporting contests.