France to ban the Burqa?

[User removed 4]

You didn't have a problem with the analogy when it was first brought up.

i didnt bring it up, i was answering somebody else's question

 

[Acker79]

i didnt bring it up, i was answering somebody else's question

Sorry, I edited while you were replying.

But you responded to it, you agreed to answer that analogy and brought it into play. If you felt it was ridiculous you should have said so.

 

[sten_super]

Of course it's a silly to take it on this level, but I think it's ridiculous to judge how much someone loves their country/home town based on their support in sporting contests.

It's one of the few times that we actual see acts of fervent nationalism in this country though. I agree it's not a great measure, but how else do you attempt to measure it? It's what we econometricians would call a proxy.

 

[User removed 4]

It's one of the few times that we actual see acts of fervent nationalism in this country though. I agree it's not a great measure, but how else do you attempt to measure it? It's what we econometricians would call a proxy.

its also not a race argument either, ive had "heated discusions" in pubs during england v ireland matches with people with broad london accents cheering on ireland.

 

[User removed 4]

Sorry, I edited while you were replying.

But you responded to it, you agreed to answer that analogy and brought it into play. If you felt it was ridiculous you should have said so.

i didnt say it was ridiculous, i answered a question somebody had posed, i also dont think you can equate support for your local football side with a sense of identity when choosing who you support on a national level.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Did anyone else see Question Time last Night when this subject came up? There was some Plaid Cymru Lady, a Tory woman Kelvin MacKenzie, some Labour Education spokesman and a Lib Dem woman.

Debate went as one would expect:

Lib Dem Female: " I think everyone should be allowed to wear want they want, can't we all find a middle way?...smattering of applause

Labour beard: "Its not down to the government to interfere, blah blah"..near silence

Tory woman: "We should only allow it in peoples own private lives but should consider banning in face to face public settings like schools and other roles where communication is essential": General applause

Plaid Cymru:"Its a womans right to do as she pleases blah blah"

MacKenzie: "These women go around wearing a sack and are deliberately saying I do not wish to engage with anyone other than my Husband": General applause

Then some bloke in the audience wearing a black suit and shirt with a turquoise tie...very 80's..pipes up and says "When is a politician going to say what everyone thinks? It's not British, its upsetting and we don't want it" the place went f***ing nuts.

Its only a snapshot I know but the sense that Politicians in general will do anything to avoid stirring up controversy, its the same old tired line we get about personal choice and tolerance.

What is it that seperates people with religious motives from everyone else? If I decided to go around the streets wearing a balaclava, whilst not doing anything illegal,I would be guaranteed to be stopped by OB and would not be welcome in any shop or bank.
If furthermore, wearing my Balaclava, I entered a school then I would expect a SWAT team to be summoned, If I hung around the kids swings in the park I could expect to get lynched.

Now just suppose that all the time I claimed that I was told by god to wear my holy balaclava? then what?

So whats different between me and a Burqa clad woman..well first off women are above suspicion when it comes to being criminals...well thats obviously bollocks, women are not involved in terrorism...also Bollocks with a recent dramatic rise in female bombers in Afghanistan who can elude security checks because of the Burqa doubly so.

just ban the bloody thing

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I was actually referring to my example. I'd hope you'd accept that there's a very fine line between diversity and division; my concern is that we are on the wrong side of that line, that is all. I'm all for having a diverse culture, but it has to be one diverse culture, rather than several completely seperate and unrelated ones.

I've absolutely no idea what your second paragraph means. Are you trying to say that these people that were supporting (say) India in the India v England game are in fact English or not?

I'm saying that it's perfectly possible to be English and support India, just as it's perfectly possible to support Australia and be English.

 

[User removed 4]

I'm saying that it's perfectly possible to be English and support India, just as it's perfectly possible to support Australia and be English.

in the pink fluffy, everybody's just wonderful world you live in maybe, in reality? no its not.

 

[Acker79]

So all my british friends that go around wearing Italian football shirts or brazilian football shirts aren't really English?

Using support for sporting teams to determine national identity is entirely ridiculous. When so much can factor into it; quality of team, appreciation for the sport, the fashion of the kit, heritage, relationships (for example perhaps some british born inidians have relatives playing for the indian cricket team, or have in the past).

I'm not English because I support England football team. I don't support England because I'm English.

 

[Acker79]

i didnt say it was ridiculous, i answered a question somebody had posed, i also dont think you can equate support for your local football side with a sense of identity when choosing who you support on a national level.

Why not? Why is your staus as a patriotic englishman dependant on you supporting England, but your status as a Brightonian is completely independent of supporting Brighton.

In a league system Brighton and Hove Albion represent this City, to support others is to oppose this city. Why do you not have a problem with this the way you do with the same thing on a national level?

 

[Pavilionaire]

I watched Question Time last night and was dismayed that ALL of the politicians basically said people should be able to wear what they like in public and private, other than when it might prejudice their job.

That is a measure of how far this country has come in terms of political correctness.

We all know why you can't wear helmets in a petrol station. We all know why you have to show your full face on passport photos and we all know why shopkeepers have banned hoodies from their stores. So given the security angle alone, why is the burkha allowed?

 

[User removed 4]

So all my british friends that go around wearing Italian football shirts or brazilian football shirts aren't really English?

Using support for sporting teams to determine national identity is entirely ridiculous. When so much can factor into it; quality of team, appreciation for the sport, the fashion of the kit, heritage, relationships (for example perhaps some british born inidians have relatives playing for the indian cricket team, or have in the past).

I'm not English because I support England football team. I don't support England because I'm English.

rubbish , people of indian , pakistani, west indian heritage are who were born here are but support the said teams over england are making a statement, im more indian , pakistani etc , they do this because the prevailing attitude from the powers that be encourage this multicultural outlook, for example i work with an american who was born in queens new york to parents of irish american heritage, but has lived here since he was one, when talking about england sports teams , he refers to them as "we", he supports england because that is what he identifies with, is it really too much to ask of someone who is happy to live here and enjoy all the benefits of a british passport to do the same ? let alone boo the england team , which is what happened the other day, are you suggesting that the british born indian fans who booed the england team last week truly feel english ??

 

[Acker79]

Another issue I've not seen raised, is the idea of the battered wife syndrome. By this I mean, there are countless examples of women who stay in abusive relationships because they think they love the man, that he loves her, that she deserves it etc.


How do we know that the women who wear the burkhas who say they want to actually do want to and it's not just a form of this syndrome where they've been convinced it's what they want to wear?

 

[User removed 4]

Another issue I've not seen raised, is the idea of the battered wife syndrome. By this I mean, there are countless examples of women who stay in abusive relationships because they think they love the man, that he loves her, that she deserves it etc.


How do we know that the women who wear the burkhas who say they want to actually do want to and it's not just a form of this syndrome where they've been convinced it's what they want to wear?

we obviously dont, and do you really think that a woman who has been coerced into wearing one of these outlandish things would be brave enough to admit it to anyone from the media etc ?

 

[Acker79]

we obviously dont, and do you really think that a woman who has been coerced into wearing one of these outlandish things would be brave enough to admit it to anyone from the media etc ?

Which is my point. We say "it's their choice" but we can't know that it really is. Just something else to add to the debate. If we let them wear it because it's what they "want" to wear, perhaps we're enabling the 'abuse' to continue?

I don't have strong opinions on the birkha or nijab either way. I do agree everyone should be free to wear what they like (I don't even have a problem with swear words), but also agree that for security there is a need to see faces.

I don't really agree with the cultural arguments, or the the fitting in with being British arguments, and the "how do we explain it to the children, please won't somebody think of the children?!" is bigotry in disguise, imo.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Another question is: does a woman who chooses to wear the burkha have an obligation to women in general to remove it if enough women feel it is a symbol of female oppression?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

its also not a race argument either, ive had "heated discusions" in pubs during england v ireland matches with people with broad london accents cheering on ireland.

Just spotted this.

Whats the problem with that? Presumably they are of Irish parentage and thus Irish citizens? I have no idea what you do for a job, but supposing you were to move abroad and bring children up there? Would they no longer be British/English?

 

[Acker79]

rubbish , people of indian , pakistani, west indian heritage are who were born here are but support the said teams over england are making a statement, im more indian , pakistani etc , they do this because the prevailing attitude from the powers that be encourage this multicultural outlook, for example i work with an american who was born in queens new york to parents of irish american heritage, but has lived here since he was one, when talking about england sports teams , he refers to them as "we", he supports england because that is what he identifies with, is it really too much to ask of someone who is happy to live here and enjoy all the benefits of a british passport to do the same ? let alone boo the england team , which is what happened the other day, are you suggesting that the british born indian fans who booed the england team last week truly feel english ??

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I feel it's ridiculous to use sporting affiliation to determine national identity, you don't.

As for the booing, that's a very weak example, did you watch any England football game in the last european competiton qualification group where we failed to progress?

Did you watch the, I think, Kazakstan(?) game earlier this year (when a silly back pass from Ashley Cole led to us conceding a goal)?

Truly british fans, english born and bred, booed the players.

 

[User removed 4]

Just spotted this.

Whats the problem with that? Presumably they are of Irish parentage and thus Irish citizens? I have no idea what you do for a job, but supposing you were to move abroad and bring children up there? Would they no longer be British/English?

if i was to move abroad and make a country my permamnent home, such as australia , canada, like countless irish have here, i would bring my kids up as canadian, australian or whatever country we had emigrated to.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

if i was to move abroad and make a country my permamnent home, such as australia , canada, like countless irish have here, i would bring my kids up as canadian, australian or whatever country we had emigrated to.

Fair enough. I think you're in the minority there. And I think its easier to say than do - if you were in Australia and your son wanted an England shirt for the Ashes, would you really say "no, I'm English but you're Australian"?

I don't see why either, provided you are still contributing to the system and abiding by the laws and customs of your new country, that you should reject your own heritage.

I think an important difference as well is that in that situation, you would more likely be making a positive choice to move to that country - not a necessary one forced upon you by circumstances.