France to ban the Burqa?

[The Spanish]

And if nuns don't like their habits being banned they can move to Rome, Orthodox Jewish women who object to their wigs being banned can move to Israel, people who decide to move to big multi-ethnic cities and don't like it can move back to their coastal villages and so on...

Blimey you had a good lunch. Wrong way round though fella sorry.

Also, telling people to move if they dont like it helped get us into this mess in the first place.

 

[aftershavedave]

Where in the story does it say that the French are going to introduce a universal BAN on the wearing of anything? All that Sarkozy has said is that he doesn't like burkas.

This is no different from Prince Charles saying he doesn't like modern architecture. It doesn't mean it will be BANNED.

there's rather a difference between prince charles having a view on anything, after all he is an unelected member of the royalty whose views have no power, and the president of france stating, very clearly, that <<La burqa ce n'est pas un signe religieux, c'est un signe d'asservissement ! Elle ne sera pas la bienvenue sur le territoire de la République>>.

he's a brave man for speaking out as he does. already detested by the french left, with the shadow of a possible bombing of the air france jet from brazil, he's looking like he's looking for a bullet......

 

[sten_super]

So you are ok with a Muslim head scarf, Jewish wig or Christian hat then?

I could invent... sorry I mean receive divine inspiration to start... a new religion under which God told me that clothes were dirty and soiled the soul, and I should therefore walk around everywhere naked. I wouldn't be allowed to do it though, as the laws of the land ban indecent exposure.

I accept that the burka and niqab aren't illegal (note that they are in some other countries), but they are contrary to the spirit of freedom and expression that we have in this country. I would argue that a head scarf, a wig or most other kinds of religious clothing isn't.

 

[Pavilionaire]

So you are ok with a Muslim head scarf, Jewish wig or Christian hat then?

Yes, of course. I regard it as a basic human right to be able to show your face, so headgear of any kind is fine provided the face isn't covered.

Surely this distinction is crystal clear?

As mentioned above, the face is an important component of communication. How the hell can ANY burkha-clad woman live a normal life here?

 

[Dandyman]

I dont think anyone is trying to ban religion. Although, the French have in Public life, but that has been for, at a guess, around 200 years? Revolution and all that.

Of course there are good things about religion.

What Christianity Judaisum and Islam need to do is admit there are fundimentaly the same. They have the same God and there have the same set of values.

French secularism dates from the start of the 20th century rather than 1789. I think the French have every right to defend the values of a secular democratic republic, the point is that is should be even handed rather than a "lets bash the rag heads" exercise.

 

[sten_super]

I thought that in the UK many schools had implemented the same rule and teachers were not allowed to teach children with the full face cover in place...or did I imagine that?

I know there was a case a couple of years ago where a classroom assistant was fired (or it may have been constructive dismissal, I forget) for wearing a burka. Whether or not there is a rule against it I'm not so sure.

 

[Dandyman]

I could invent... sorry I mean receive divine inspiration to start... a new religion under which God told me that clothes were dirty and soiled the soul, and I should therefore walk around everywhere naked. I wouldn't be allowed to do it though, as the laws of the land ban indecent exposure.

I accept that the burka and niqab aren't illegal (note that they are in some other countries), but they are contrary to the spirit of freedom and expression that we have in this country. I would argue that a head scarf, a wig or most other kinds of religious clothing isn't.

To be honest I think all of them are reactionary and unpleasant things but I don't want the state to tell me what I can or can not wear and I treat the sight of right-wingers (not refering to you btw) suddenly becoming ardent feminists with the derision it deserves.

 

[Dandyman]

I know there was a case a couple of years ago where a classroom assistant was fired (or it may have been constructive dismissal, I forget) for wearing a burka. Whether or not there is a rule against it I'm not so sure.

She was dismissed because she needed to teach children & not showing her face made that impossible. There are other bits of case law involving Christian fundamentalists and Islington and Liverpool councils that are useful in deciding the right to expect people to do their jobs and their freedom of conscience.

 

[Dandyman]

Blimey you had a good lunch. Wrong way round though fella sorry.

Also, telling people to move if they dont like it helped get us into this mess in the first place.

So you want the state to tell you what you can or can not wear?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Did you try?

It was my wife and, no, she didn't.

For a child, a woman who's face is obscured by a burkha and the rest of her is covered head to toe in black is a strange sight.

To explain it effectively a 3-year old would need a basic grasp of what religion is and then need to get their head round the fact some religions wear strange clothes.

Who's got the time to explain all of that when Tiny Trucks is 10 feet away?

 

[sten_super]

To be honest I think all of them are reactionary and unpleasant things but I don't want the state to tell me what I can or can not wear and I treat the sight of right-wingers (not refering to you btw) suddenly becoming ardent feminists with the derision it deserves.

Haha, fair point. For me it's not a question of 'liberating' women, it's about integration. My opinion has I think rapidly changed in recent weeks/months, I was what bushy would probably call 'a soppy liberal' or similar. However I do worry about the lack of integration of cultures. Maybe my fears are unfounded, and it's simply a matter of time/generations before our cultures intermingle and we become more accepting. I don't think that means that we should stick our heads in the sand though. Integration of British and Asian cultures has had, thus far, extremely mixed results. There are some examples of where it has happened, and some where it hasn't.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't see that Sarkozy has "suddenly" become an "ardent feminist".

France has a history of strong women - Joan Of Arc, Edith Piaf, Coco Chanel, Michelle Dubois of 'Allo 'Allo to name but a few, AND it has a history of fashion, therefore it is only logical they take the lead on this issue.

 

[The Spanish]

So you want the state to tell you what you can or can not wear?

No. Social convention should be enough like it is in everyday life. Social convention would dictate that this dress under discussion was unacceptable, without the imaginary political interference from the state which you claim would restrict all our liberty if we legislated against burkas, rather than the political interference we HAVE seen which has inadvertently helped cause this current issue, by promoting the lack of need to integrate.

 

[Brovion]

Are Nuns in France banned from wearing their wimples then?

Indeed. There is really not an awful lot of difference between a nun's full habit and a burqua - and none at all in the function of both whch is to preserve female modesty. But of course nuns are part of 'our' culture and burquas are a symbol of an evil, malign foreign influence that seeks to undermine and destroy our society. Eh Spanish?

 

[The Spanish]

Indeed. There is really not an awful lot of difference between a nun's full habit and a burqua - and none at all in the function of both whch is to preserve female modesty. But of course nuns are part of 'our' culture and burquas are a symbol of an evil, malign foreign influence that seeks to undermine and destroy our society. Eh Spanish?

Two nuns in the bath.....

 

[Stoo82]

 

[Pavilionaire]

Yeah, those pictures are REALLY similar. One woman has her face COMPLETELY visible and one, er, doesn't...

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

To be honest I think all of them are reactionary and unpleasant things but I don't want the state to tell me what I can or can not wear and I treat the sight of right-wingers (not refering to you btw) suddenly becoming ardent feminists with the derision it deserves.

I think if the state has clear rules about seclarism and has decided that the wearing of religious garb is simply not allowed then the individuals concerned can decide for themselves whether or not they are prepared to live in that state or whether they should choose to live somewhere that allows them to wear whatever they like to demonstrate their faith.

It should ALWAYS be the role of the state to decide what is or isn't acceptable for its citizens to do. If France decides to prevent the wearing of a Burqa, which is NOT a requirement of Islam, but is primarily worn to profess loyalty to religion and seperation from others then that is wholly acceptable IMO.

What would the impact on these women be if they had to discard the veil? are they suddenly less Muslim? of course not. Would men pay them more attention? of course but so what?

I have a friend who is Bangladeshi and whilst he presents himself as very Western is actually pretty into his Islam on the QT and he asserts that men are completely unable to control themselves and unless girls are covered they will be raped on a daily basis. he doesnt mind of course if British girls are the victims, he also doesnt mind sleeping with British women...he just wants "nice" muslim girls to go unmolested by nasty men and will insist when he marries a good Bangladeshi Muslim girl that she adopts the Burqa and no doubt will claim that it is her absolute wish rather than his own insecurity that compels it.

There are always a load of these anecdotes on here, "my mate said this so it must be the truth" type of arguments and I don't like to use this one example as a general view of Muslims but from what I gather this is a widely held view by men from that particular cultural tradition.

If France is serious about its secular tradition, won in Bloody revolution, then they MUST ban the wearing of religious clothes that prevent integration with the rest of society.

 

[Simster]

As I understand it, secularism is the idea of separating the state from religion. Personally, I think it's a great concept.

Which begs the question, what the hell is the president of a secular nation think he's doing by commenting on the culture and tradition of ANY religion? He should leave well alone, IMO.

 

[Austrian Gull]

As I understand it, secularism is the idea of separating the state from religion. Personally, I think it's a great concept.

Which begs the question, what the hell is the president of a secular nation think he's doing by commenting on the culture and tradition of ANY religion? He should leave well alone, IMO.

Sarkozy is well-known as having an opinion on everything and making sure that the media (and hence the population) hears it on a daily basis. It is no coincidence that the far-right vote in France has collapsed since he became President - calling inner-city rioters scum who need to be hosed down by a Kärcher has helped take Le Pen's voters away in their droves.

I do, however, pretty much agree with what he has said about burqas.