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[Football] England v Italy UEFA Euros qualifier 7.45



Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
It did cross my mind last night that the players could probably manage that game better without a manager, they are all (with a couple of exceptions in the starting 11) excellent players who have been well schooled by their club managers. Southgate gets far too much credit imo.

I’ll feck off from this thread now because my negativity does piss off quite a few posters on this matter I accept
Both the credit and the criticism is a bit silly.

England share a trait with the 210 other FIFA national teams: when they play against teams with worse footballers, they usually win, and when playing against teams with better footballers, they usually lose. There's not an awful lot a national team manager can do about any of those things.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
exactly why I didn’t want Fulham in the SF of the FA Cup - would much rather go out fairly to Manure and by playing our own, enjoyable, flowing football than loosing to cheating, brain injured Fulham.
Very off topic, but are you home yet?
 


Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
Both the credit and the criticism is a bit silly.

England share a trait with the 210 other FIFA national teams: when they play against teams with worse footballers, they usually win, and when playing against teams with better footballers, they usually lose. There's not an awful lot a national team manager can do about any of those things.
If that were true you’d never get surprise results and who decides if players are better or worse, managers can have a big influence on players, as we Brighton fans know….
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
If that were true you’d never get surprise results and who decides if players are better or worse, managers can have a big influence on players, as we Brighton fans know….
Depening on which Brighton fan you ask about which manager, its either that "the players made the manager good" or "the manager made the players good", depending on what the current narrative is.

As I said, "usually win / usually lose". Yes, sometimes there are surprise results and these can be the result of many things: luck, the players causing the surprise having a good day at the job, the players losing have a bad day, fine margins, freak goals. Once in a while, yes a tactical or strategical move made by the manager will win you the game. But most often it will be down to the quality of the players: if England go and play against... Slovenia, they will win maybe 8 or 9 out of 10 because the footballers are better. If they go and play against France or Argentina, they'll lose maybe 7 out of 10, because their footballers are worse.

Managers in club teams can have more influence on players than manager in club teams. If all the clubs in England are unable to produce three top class midfielders despite having academies and whatnot working on that on a daily basis, then how is Southgate supposed to produce a top class midfield trio when he is only in charge of some 30 training sessions a year?
 


Napper

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
23,978
Sussex
These are good times for England, despite Southgate, not because of him.

And just imagine how much better these times could have been if he had made a substitution to stop Italy's pressure in the Euro final, instead of freezing and allowing them to score and take it to pens?

How can anyone justify Maguire and Phillips starting last night, when Southgate himself stated that he would only pick players who were in form?

Southgate is a mediocre manager who Premier League clubs outside of the relegation zone wouldn't dream of employing.
Look at the golden generation though. It's easy to underachieve. I think with the players we have we are about par / slightly over achieving. We are contenders now !

The Italy one argument is nonsense. Yes we could of gone all out but the momentum had changed in that game. Football is like that , I think we did well to not lose and take it to pens. Then its just a toss of a coin . We could easily of been Euro champions. In fact , get to that position again and in all likely hood we would be. No doubt the knockers will then moan we didn't score enough , do enough step overs etc etc . Frankly the knocking is bollocks.

We've had elite managers and that comes with its own issues within our set up. Southgate has all the team behind him. The players love playing for England and would run through walls for him. You can't buy team spirit.

Careful what you wish for. Unless you crave the days where club players would sit at their own tables and not interact . Guess that would give us all something to moan about then though so would fit the agenda
 




Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
32,037
Brighton
Southgate isn't great. But he's also comfortably the best & most successful England manager in my lifetime (I'm 37).

I do however think his chronic loyalty (for better and worse) to one set of players means that the Euros really should be his last tournament, whatever the results/performance look like.
 


The Seagull

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2021
340
Southgate isn't great. But he's also comfortably the best & most successful England manager in my lifetime (I'm 37).

I do however think his chronic loyalty to one set of players means that the Euros really should be his last tournament, whatever the results/performance look like.
Yes he is comfortably the best. I’m 48 and had to put up with not even qualifying for some tournaments. We’ve had documentaries made of our 2 semi final appearances in 90 and 96 BUT Southgate gets us to a final and a semi and all he gets is slated ! Most football fans know nothing.
 








Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
32,037
Brighton
Yes he is comfortably the best. I’m 48 and had to put up with not even qualifying for some tournaments. We’ve had documentaries made of our 2 semi final appearances in 90 and 96 BUT Southgate gets us to a final and a semi and all he gets is slated ! Most football fans know nothing.
I find it bizarre how many Brighton fans can be level-headed about the Albion, but insanely over-entitled when it comes to expecting success of England.

We are where we should be, maybe even slightly overachieving. We aren't the best side in the World. Probably about 4th/5th (ie quarters, semis, occasional final).
 








The Seagull

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2021
340
I remember Rome in '97 how much I wanted England to win/get the point that was needed and riding the rollercoaster of Wrighty hitting the post then Vieri putting that header wide, but now, just over 25 years later because of that Palace wrong 'un Southgate, I genuinely hope Italy win this.
What a strange div you are. Would prefer us to scramble a 0-0 many years ago than beat Italy on their own turf ?! Tit.
 


Reddleman

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
1,966
I have absolutely no problem with the ‘dark arts’ including Kane crawling onto the pitch. If we had been 2-1 down and that was Italians doing that we would be enraged but would grudging admit they have the know how how to get over the line in tough games.

It seems that now it’s not enough for England to win we have to do it playing glorious attacking football as well as playing a purer brand of football with no dark arts than most teams. Frankly a few fans need to wake up and grow up.
 




Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
5,287
How is Southgate supposed to produce a top class midfield trio when he is only in charge of some 30 training sessions a year?
Well in part (because we also recruit from abroad obviously) surely the same way we do at Brighton? - through scouting/development and coaching young talent from our Academy or other domestic club’s academies - in Southgate’s case, England’s U21s and 16-20s youth teams. I don’t buy into the 30 session excuse ( which might actually be nearer 50 in a WC/European Championship year) as to why we might not have our very top talent in England in the squad - all national teams face the same limitations. Moreover, England is certainly not at disadvantaged cf to other countries when it comes to infrastructure and academy football.

No, Southgate isn’t a shit manager and no the current squad is definitely not shit (including Kane) and yes, we are 4th or 5th best in the World BUT my question is: with all our first world advantage, home to the top domestic league in the World, with over half of the worlds richest clubs in the EPL, home to some of the best youth academies in the world, why aren’t we the BEST?

Why has it been 57 years since we won our one only only WC?
 
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Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Well in part (because we also recruit from abroad obviously) surely the same way we do at Brighton? - through scouting/development and coaching young talent from our Academy or other domestic club’s academies - in Southgate’s case, England’s U21s and 16-20s youth teams.

I don’t buy into the 30 session excuse ( which might actually be nearer 50 in a WC/European Championship year) as to why we might not have our very top talent in England in the squad - all national teams face the same limitations. Moreover, England is certainly not at disadvantaged cf to other countries when it comes to infrastructure and academy football.

For me it’s all about the scouting of academy players and youth development when it comes to the England squad (and ours too!) - good scouting means you already know who will work together and gel with the rest of the squad before they even get to their first training. - and before they even come of age or football maturity if you are a good scout …

I agree the luxury of full time training isn’t there or even the luxury of a squad playing all year together but Southgate’s experience with the England youth teams has surely prepared him more than most when it comes to using the youth teams and U21s as a feeder for the England squad. In fact, the time distance between competitive games could even mean self confessed England ‘development orientated’ managers like Southgate, have an advantage over club managers - in that as in Southgate’s case, who had responsibility for overseeing coaches from the over 16-20s as well as the U21s, he would have the channels to recruit youth players that could eventually make it into the England squad years later without being under pressure to get them there before the next transfer window - How many club managers would love to be free of that pressure!!

No, Southgate isn’t a shit manager and no the current squad is definitely not shit (including Kane) and yes, we are 4th or 5th best in the World BUT my question is: with all our first world advantage, home to the top domestic league in the World, with over half of the worlds richest clubs in the EPL, home to some of the best youth academies in the world, why aren’t we the BEST?

Why has it been 57 years since we won our one only only WC?
I'm sure Southgate has quite a good awareness of the 16-21 youth teams but a national team is mainly about quality today and while I think there's some reasonably talented midfielders in the U21, nothing is indicating that they would do much if any better than Henderson & co. Its up to the clubs to produce good enough players and in central midfield there just hasn't been enough top players coming through in recent years. He's not going to turn James Garner into Adrien Rabiot regardless if he has 30, 40 or 50 sessions to work with.

England only recently joined other successful countries in focusing on academies after being hopelessly behind for some twenty years. The outcomes so far are positive and there will probably be more to come, but its still lagging behind. Premier League being the richest league in the world (and allegedly the best despite Spanish teams pretty much subscribing to CL / EL titles) won't do much for the English team as long as the players in the league quite simply aren't English.

The main reason England has not won the WC for 57 years is that you've never had the best team. Some English doesn't think that... because they don't watch a lot of other leagues. Take "the golden generation" - best in the world in England, but Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard etc. were more often than not destroyed when playing the best teams in the Champions League. Usually England has been maybe around 10-15th best in the world and then it is difficult to win. Currently they're probably around 5th, which has also taken them closer to winning things.

Obviously infrastructure and money spent on academies is working and will probably make England even better (if you don't allow your conservative mentality take charge of football again) but some disadvantages are difficult to deal with. A Spanish, Brazilian or Argentinian kid can go out and play football at any time 365 days a year and will often do so, creating a natural disadvantage compared to countries that actually have a fair bit of winter where you may not be playing on the streets 8 hours a day in December or January.

When young players like Gavi or Pedri (or in the past Xavi and Iniesta) enter the Spanish team, they will in general have touched a football tens of thousands of times more than most English talents. This advantage shows clearly in technical ability and is going to be advantegous when playing in optimal conditions (like most World Cups). Very good for South American (like Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay) and South European (like Spain, Italy and parts of France) teams. Hence 17 out of 22 titles ending up in these countries, with Germany (4) and England (1) as the only exceptions.
 


Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
5,287
It seems that now it’s not enough for England to win we have to do it playing glorious attacking football as well as playing a purer brand of football with no dark arts than most teams. Frankly a few fans need to wake up and grow up.
Oh I think winning is definitely enough - it’s when dark arts are used against us is when when I get pissed off. 😂
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,421
Goldstone
The result would suggest otherwise.
The result suggests Italy weren't very good and we have some good players. I didn't see any evidence that it was great tactics by us.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,421
Goldstone
Beauty of football, we all see things differently. I guess you were happy with Villa and Fulham at the Amex too?

You guess wrong.


Kane clearly fooled you, that was pathetic from him imo, crawling along like a baby
So you think he wasn't at all sore, and that he was just time wasting? I think you're confused.
 


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